Author Topic: Thomas Murray/Murry - St Helens - 1871  (Read 5493 times)

Offline 47813

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Thomas Murray/Murry - St Helens - 1871
« on: Tuesday 07 October 08 03:48 BST (UK) »
Hello,

Thanks to the link provided by a rootschatter to the free trail on Gale of the 19th Century newspapers i found a story involving an ancestor of mine by the name of Thomas Murray.

The newspaper has the surname as Murry (the article was 1880) and later census' for other members of his family are spelt the same, but not all and some marriages for the family give the name as Murray. So some confusion there...

...Anyway i won't go into full detail about what happened but i only found i was releated to Thomas Murray/Murry from this article. Long story short - My GG-Grandfather Josiah Jackson of 92 Wilson Street, Prescot, St Helens was said at the inquest of a unknown man (killed by a train at Broadgreen station) that he thought the man to be his brother-in-law Thomas Murry. In the next line it says he was later proven to be mistaken.

So i knew all his sisters that i had managed to marriage off did not marry any Mr Murray's or Murry's and i had only one unmarried sister - that was his eldest sister Alice. Sure enough i find a marriage in the right area, right age of a Alice Jackson and a Thomas Murray (think it was spelt Murray on the marriage - not certain)

However Thomas is missing on the 1881 census and oddly enough Alice is living with children and another lady called Ester Murry in Warwick.

So i'm still looking for Thomas but only have his name to go on. Pretty sure Alice and Thomas were married in 1865 and in 1871 they should have Elizabeth, who should 5 or 6.

Maybe then with the fresh information on Thomas i can track him down in 1881 and try and solve how he came to be missing (enough for Josiah to tell an inquest this dead man was Thomas) - Solve how Alice and children moved within a year of this miles and miles away from family in St Helens to be in Warwickshire.

All very interesting

Thankyou

Jonathan
LOUGHLIN - Galway, Ireland/Heywood, Lancs
HOWARTH - Rochdale
IVES - Rochdale. Originally Thurlstone, WR Yorkshire
BRIDGENS - Rochdale via Stourbridge
JACKSON - Prescot
PENKETH - Prescot
CONNOLLY - Kilmain, Ireland/Heywood, Lancs
WILD - Rochdale via Wolverhampton
SANDERSON - Rochdale
KNIGHT - Rochdale via Holme, Huntingdonshire
BARROW - Marton,Blackpool
DAGGER - Blackpool
BAILEY - Rochdale/Rushton, Staffordshire & Oldham
SERGINSON - London/Wolverhampton/Leeds/Manchester
BRIGGS - Doncaster

Offline Sisterjane

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Re: Thomas Murray/Murry - St Helens - 1871
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 07 October 08 10:06 BST (UK) »
Hi..not sure if you have access to cencus but this is a possible..

1871-Cencus

RG10/3864/149/30

Jane
Kershaw, Longbottom,Parvin
Areas  Huddersfield, Brighouse, Rastrick ,Thirsk, Sand Hutton
Masters in London/Surrey
Cencus information is crown copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

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Re: Thomas Murray/Murry - St Helens - 1871
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 07 October 08 10:16 BST (UK) »
Here are the details of the 1871.

1871-Cencus-Eccleston-Lancashire
Looks like Coright St

MURRAY


Thomas 26 head b St Helens       Lab
Alice 33 wife b Rainford-Lancs
Elisab 5 dau b St Helens
Thomas 2 son b  "
Sarah 6m dau b   "

Jane
Kershaw, Longbottom,Parvin
Areas  Huddersfield, Brighouse, Rastrick ,Thirsk, Sand Hutton
Masters in London/Surrey
Cencus information is crown copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

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Re: Thomas Murray/Murry - St Helens - 1871
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 07 October 08 10:52 BST (UK) »
There are these deaths in Prescot/Lancs which covers the Eccleston district where they were living in 1871 and which could explain why they are not on the 1881 with Alice.

Deaths

Thomas Murray
Born abt 1868-Died 1874-Dec Q
Prescot

Sarah Murray
Born 1871-Died 1871-Jun Q
Prescot

Jane
Kershaw, Longbottom,Parvin
Areas  Huddersfield, Brighouse, Rastrick ,Thirsk, Sand Hutton
Masters in London/Surrey
Cencus information is crown copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Offline Sisterjane

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Re: Thomas Murray/Murry - St Helens - 1871
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 07 October 08 11:14 BST (UK) »
Wonder if this could be Thomas in 1881.

According to the 1891 cencus he states he was born in Ireland.

1881 Cencus-Bootle
RG11/3691/12/18
Bostock St

Thomas Murray 34 Lodger Married b Ireland   Dock Labourer


Jane
Kershaw, Longbottom,Parvin
Areas  Huddersfield, Brighouse, Rastrick ,Thirsk, Sand Hutton
Masters in London/Surrey
Cencus information is crown copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Sisterjane

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Re: Thomas Murray/Murry - St Helens - 1871
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 07 October 08 12:07 BST (UK) »
1891 Cencus-Eccleston-Lancashire
RG12/3021/91/31
Napier St

MURRAY


Thomas 43 head b Ireland    Lab Copper Worker
Alice 53 wife b Rainford/Lancs
Barbara 15 dau b St Helens
Thomas 13 son b Birmingham/Warks   App Glass Worker
John 26 Boarder b St Helens           Gen Lab

John Hesketh 58 Boarder b Prescot   Bricklayers Lab
John Rafferty 30 Boarder b St Helens  Copper worker


It still dosent explain the move to Warwickshire in 1870s though. ???

Jane
Kershaw, Longbottom,Parvin
Areas  Huddersfield, Brighouse, Rastrick ,Thirsk, Sand Hutton
Masters in London/Surrey
Cencus information is crown copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline 47813

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Re: Thomas Murray/Murry - St Helens - 1871
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 08 October 08 03:24 BST (UK) »
Thankyou Sisterjane!!!  ;D

I have to keep checking its all one person, so much information. This is not the first time you have helped me either  ;D - I don't know what to say.

We are starting to piece some of the jigsaw together...

... I never thought i see Thomas return, i don't know what to think of him now!

So their both living content in 1871 and then sometime in the late 1870's the family, or maybe just Alice and the children move to Warks - family connection on Thomas' side??????

Then the 1881 census comes on by and Alice is alone with the children in Warks and Thomas could well be in Liverpool - certainly looks like him

1891 - They both back together in St Helens

Now i was a little rushed last night and didn't really go into detail. I have been looking closer at my notes and i see that the 1881 census was taken on April 3rd...

...While in the Tuesday April 19th 1881 edition of the Liverpool Mercury is the report i mentioned about Alice's younger brother Josiah having mistakingly identified the week previous (Sat 16th) a man's body who died at Broadgreen railway station - Here is the whole article:

THE RAILWAY ACCIDENT AT BROADGREEN

Yesterday, at the Abbey Hotel, Broadgreen, Mr Barker deputy coroner, held the inquest on the body of a man unknown, who was killed at the London and North-western Railway Station, Broadgreen, on the 14th instant, under circumstances already reported. Mr Ferrand, from Lime-street station, attended the inquiry on behalf of the railway company. After hearing the evidence of W.H Whittle, the porter on duty at the time of the accident, and of the stationmaster, the jury recorded a verdict of "Accidental death"
It was stated in the course of the inquest, that on Saturday last, the body was identified by Mr. Josiah Jackson, of Wilson-street, St Helens as that of his brother-in-law, Thomas Murry, who was a furnace-man empolyed at the St Helens Copper Works, but subsequent inquiry showed that Mr. Jackson was mistaken.
The deceased, who was about 30 to 35 years of age, appeared, from a book found upon him, to have been a hawker from Leeds or its neighbourhood.


So the census is taken on the 3rd where we see that Alice is alone with children down in Warks, then on the 14th a man is killed at Broadgreen Station and by the 16th Josiah has identified the man as Thomas. However by the 19th the newspaper says he is mistaken.

The question remains, how and why did Josiah think that this unknown man was his brother-in-law and not only that he identified the body!
He worked at the same place (assusming theres only one Copper Works in St Helens)
LOUGHLIN - Galway, Ireland/Heywood, Lancs
HOWARTH - Rochdale
IVES - Rochdale. Originally Thurlstone, WR Yorkshire
BRIDGENS - Rochdale via Stourbridge
JACKSON - Prescot
PENKETH - Prescot
CONNOLLY - Kilmain, Ireland/Heywood, Lancs
WILD - Rochdale via Wolverhampton
SANDERSON - Rochdale
KNIGHT - Rochdale via Holme, Huntingdonshire
BARROW - Marton,Blackpool
DAGGER - Blackpool
BAILEY - Rochdale/Rushton, Staffordshire & Oldham
SERGINSON - London/Wolverhampton/Leeds/Manchester
BRIGGS - Doncaster

Offline Sisterjane

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Re: Thomas Murray/Murry - St Helens - 1871
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 08 October 08 07:59 BST (UK) »
Hi

I dont suppose you will ever find out why Josiah mistakenly Identified Thomas but my theory would be ...Perhaps when they moved to Warks Thomas was still working in Liverpool and didnt return home(to Warwickshire by train on the Saturday morning when he was supposed to) and Alice got in touch with her brother Josiah to see if he knew where he was..now perhaps Josiah had heard there had been an accident at the station and knew Thomas was there at the time and offered to id the body but  maybe the accident had caused such terrible facial and body injuries that Josiah assumed it was him because he hadnt returned home and then when he did find out he let the coroner know it wasnt Thomas body after all... ??? ???

Also it would seem that they all moved to Warks..not just Alice..According to the 1891 cencus Thomas(the son) was b 1878/79 in Birmingham/Warks and there is a birth..Thomas Murray b 1878-Aston/Warks June Q...Aston is where they were living in 1881.
There were 2 Thomas Murrays b 1878/79 in the Prescot area but Ive accounted for both of them so I would say the Aston Thomas is the son of Alice and Thomas.

Jane.. :)
Kershaw, Longbottom,Parvin
Areas  Huddersfield, Brighouse, Rastrick ,Thirsk, Sand Hutton
Masters in London/Surrey
Cencus information is crown copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline 47813

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Re: Thomas Murray/Murry - St Helens - 1871
« Reply #8 on: Friday 10 October 08 03:33 BST (UK) »
Hi, Sisterjane

Thanks - Funny how I get such certain pictures in my head! Whenever i think about Josiah identifying the body, i get an image of an complete body on a table in a morgue. When really most people who are hit by a train and killed are not a pretty sight. Even if the man was not it square on by the train, it would have done alot of damage.

Why Broadgreen though? - Its a few stops down the line from Prescot on the line to Liverpool. I have some ideas but most people hit by a train are walking or lying on the tracks. The only event that gets Thomas to Broadgreen is travelling though on a train to Prescot.
This uncertainty over how this unknown man died, annoys me because in the article as you will see, it says '... under circumstances already reported'

I take that to mean the Liverpool Mercury written between the event and that above copy mentioned in more detail exactly how the man died

I say this because the article only says 'killed' not whether he was walking/lying on the tracks or whether he fell out of a carriage

But searching for earlier issues has found no mention of this accident

Jonathan
LOUGHLIN - Galway, Ireland/Heywood, Lancs
HOWARTH - Rochdale
IVES - Rochdale. Originally Thurlstone, WR Yorkshire
BRIDGENS - Rochdale via Stourbridge
JACKSON - Prescot
PENKETH - Prescot
CONNOLLY - Kilmain, Ireland/Heywood, Lancs
WILD - Rochdale via Wolverhampton
SANDERSON - Rochdale
KNIGHT - Rochdale via Holme, Huntingdonshire
BARROW - Marton,Blackpool
DAGGER - Blackpool
BAILEY - Rochdale/Rushton, Staffordshire & Oldham
SERGINSON - London/Wolverhampton/Leeds/Manchester
BRIGGS - Doncaster