John Wardlaw Reid

[JAP]

Pittenweem births (from the IGI) have the following to a Helen DRUMMOND with no father named:

Helen DRUMMOND b 1856
James DRUMMOND b 1858
Janet Haig DRUMMOND b 1860

JAP

[Chiad Fhear]

Now then ... Now then ... Hows about this then ...

HELEN DRUMMOND was born 30 Nov 1832 in Pittenweem, Anstruther Wester, Fife, daughter of JAMES DRUMMOND and CHRISTIAN STEVENSON and died 06 Aug 1903 in Fife and Kinross Asylum, Parish of Cupar, Fife.  She married (2) JAMES REID WARDLAW 19 Sep 1861 in Pittenweem, Fife, son of JAMES WARDLAW and JANET HAIG.  He was born Abt. 1835 in Culross, Perthshire.

Notes for HELEN DRUMMOND:
1841 Census Residing at Lower Loan, Pittenweem, Fife
1851 Census Residing at Cowgate, Pittenweem, Fife
1861 Census Residing at High Street, Pittenweem, Fife
1871 Census Residing at 37 Abbey Street, St Andrews, Fife
1901 Census Residing at Woodend Cotton, Dunino, Fife as Helen REID
1903 Death Register shows Helen as 'Helen Reid married to James Wardlaw Reid, General Labourer'.
Helen's death 'Informant' was Samuel Begg, Attendant from the Fife and Kinross Asylum

More About HELEN DRUMMOND:
Baptism: 09 Dec 1832, Anstruther, Fife
Cause of Death: Spinal Myelitis several months P.M. (post mortem)

Notes for JAMES REID WARDLAW:
1861 Marriage Register - James 'made his mark' indicating that he was, perhaps, uneducated
1871 Census Residing at 27 Abbey Street, St Andrews, Fife.
1901 Census Residing at Woodend Cotton, Dunino, Fife as James REID

More About JAMES REID WARDLAW:
Occupation: 1861, Labourer
   
Children of HELEN DRUMMOND are:
i.   CHRISTIAN BLACK, b. Abt. 1853, Pittenweem, Fife.

Notes for CHRISTIAN BLACK:
1861 Census Residing at High Street, Pittenweem, Fife

ii.   HELEN DRUMMOND, b. 12 Apr 1856, Pittenweem, Fife.

Notes for HELEN DRUMMOND:
Illegitimate
1861 Census Residing at High Street, Pittenweem, Fife
1871 Census Residing at 37 Abbey Street, St Andrews, Fife - scholar

iii.   JAMES DRUMMOND, b. 03 Sep 1858, Pittenweem, Fife.

Notes for JAMES DRUMMOND:
Illegitimate
1861 Census Residing at High Street, Pittenweem, Fife
1871 Census Residing at 37 Abbey Street, St Andrews, Fife - scholar

   
Child of HELEN DRUMMOND and JAMES WARDLAW is:
iv.   JOHN REID WARDLAW, b. 02 Nov 1861, Pittenweem, Fife.


Although my record shows that James was her 2nd husband, I'm pretty sure he was her first and only and that she already had a couple of bairns when she married him (given that her second one was Illegitimate)

JAMES DRUMMOND and CHRISTIAN STEVENSON were my maternal Great Great Grandparents 

Regards

Chiad Fhear

[Chiad Fhear]

Dear All

I've been having a wee think about this thread and have been looking at all the information that’s been proffered.  I've come to the conclusion that there seems to be some confusion that is all part and parcel of genealogy ... it’s a haystack full of needles - but it is the threads that we need ... it’s where we confuse the dead and irritate the living.

pars941 was looking for his GG Grandfather John Wardlaw Reid, birth year 1863 Pittenween who was married to Maggie Brown and who were on the 1891 and 1901 Census - 1891 Census at 7 South Castle Street, St Andrews then in 1901 at 10 Market Street, St Andrews

The 1881 Census for 9 South Castle Street, St Andrews and St Leonards, Fife was for JAMES REID, his wife HELEN two ‘children’ and two grandchildren.  Was this the first time James’s presumed illiteracy came though (given that he ‘made his mark’ on the marriage register) - getting his name written down wrongly?

Then there’s John Reid Wardlaw born Pittenweem 2nd Nov 1861 (not 1863) whose parents were James Reid Wardlaw and Helen Drummond.  The marriage between James Reid Wardlaw and Helen Drummond at Pittenweem on 19th Sept 1861 would tie in with John’s birth.  It was common practice then for a girl to become pregnant before marriage to prove she could have children and continue the line and Helen appears to have had this all cut and dried having had no less than three illegitimate children - perhaps a fourth – Janet Haig Drummond - before marrying John – although there’s a dubious entry of ‘boarder’ James Reid who was about Helen’s age on the 1861 Pittenweem Census!  Call me suspicious if you will!

Janet Haig Drummond was, more than likely, the illegitimate daughter of Helen and James given that James’s mother’s maiden name was Haig.

I would argue that Helen’s maiden surname was DRUMMOND and not BLACK

I think, perhaps, we need to sit down with a clean sheet of paper here, sort this jumble out and come back with an answer.

I look forward to a solution being found!

Regards

Chiad Fhear

[JAP]

My GG Grandfather John Wardlaw Reid, birth year 1863 Pittenween, but am struggling to find any more information, he was married to a Maggie Brown (NFD) can any one help please
Susie

Hello Susie,

It might be useful to point out how you could have set about finding further information.

You might find it helpful to read the following threads:
'Where to start Scottish research' at
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,24468.0.html
'Optimise ScotlandsPeople searches' at
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,43916.0.html

From the information you provided in your post, the first step to finding further information would have been to search on (the pay-per-view site) ScotlandsPeople for the marriage of a John REID & a Maggie BROWN.  Surprisingly, given that they are fairly common names, there is only one record between 1855 (the start of Statutory Registration) and 1932 (online records for marriages currently stop at 1932).

You could then have downloaded the search result which shows that John REID (no middle name) married Maggie Ann BROWN, 1888, St Andrews & St Leonards, Fife.

You could then have downloaded the actual certificate.  Details are that on 8 Jun 1888 at 24 North Castle St, St Andrews
John REID, a Fisherman aged 24 of 9 South Castle Street, parents James Wardlaw REID, a General Labourer & Helen REID m.s. DRUMMOND
married
Maggie Ann BROWN, a Fish-line-Bailer of 24 North Castle Street, parents Melville BROWN, a Fisherman & Agnes BROWN m.s. ANDERSON.

This would have given you basic information from which to search further in the IGI (International Genealogical Index) at:
http://www.familysearch.org
and on ScotlandsPeople at:
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
(SP has BDMs, censuses, and wills online)

Unfortunately, as has been found, John's ancestry is complicated by the fact that his father was sometimes recorded as James Wardlaw REID and sometimes as James Reid WARDLAW.

However, you might now like to follow up Maggie Ann BROWN for yourself and see how you go.  Everyone here will be more than happy to help if you strike any problems.

Best of luck,

JAP

[JAP]

Hi Chiad Fhear,

A few questions, please, to try to clarify the WARDLAW/REID puzzle in my own mind.

I take it that you have a copy of the 1861 marriage certificate of James Reid WARDLAW & Helen DRUMMOND, and that this is where you found James's parents as James WARDLAW & Janet HAIG?

Do you have the death cert of James WARDLAW or REID?  What does it say about his parents? A free search on SP finds that a James Wardlaw REID died in 1908, age recorded as 73. 

From the IGI - a James WARDLAW & a Janet HAIG married in Culross, Perth in 1833.  They had WARDLAW children, all in Culross - James 1833, Sarah 1836, Jessie 1839, William 1841, Richard 1844, Robert 1846, Mary 1848.

The only census birthplace I can find for James on this thread is Dunfermline (1861 and 1881) - what is on other censuses as his birthplace?

It would be useful to find the James WARDLAW/Janet HAIG family on censuses.

It occurs to me that Janet (HAIG) WARDLAW might have been widowed and re-married to a REID ...

It would also be useful to find James WARDLAW b 1833 (or REID) in the 1841 and 1851 censuses (he might be with his parents ...).  Do you have that information?

All the best,

JAP

[Chiad Fhear]

Hi JAP

Thanks for that.  To answer your questions:

I take it that you have a copy of the 1861 marriage certificate of James Reid WARDLAW & Helen DRUMMOND, and that this is where you found James's parents as James WARDLAW & Janet HAIG?

Yes ...
1861 September Nineteenth At Pittenweem ...
James Reid Wardlaw  (26)  Pittenweem
His  X  Mark
Labourer Bachelor
(Signed) Patrick Macfarlane
Minr. Witness
Helen Drummond   (27)  PIttenweem
(Spinster)
Parents:
James Reid Wardlaw  (Carter)
Janet Wardlaw M.S. Haig  (Deceased)
James Drummond  (Labourer)  (Deceased)
Christian Drummond M.S. Stevenson

Do you have the death cert of James WARDLAW or REID?  What does it say about his parents? A free search on SP finds that a James Wardlaw REID died in 1908, age recorded as 73.

No.  I haven’t gone out on that branch as yet ...

From the IGI - a James WARDLAW & a Janet HAIG married in Culross, Perth in 1833.  They had WARDLAW children, all in Culross - James 1833, Sarah 1836, Jessie 1839, William 1841, Richard 1844, Robert 1846, Mary 1848.

Thanks ... that would appear to be them.

The only census birthplace I can find for James on this thread is Dunfermline (1861 and 1881) - what is on other censuses as his birthplace?

I only have two:
1871 : 27 Abbey Street, St Andrews, Fife
James R Wardlaw   Head/Mar/36/General Labourer/Perthshire, Culross
Helen Wardlaw   Wife/Mar/37/Fife, Anstruther Wester
Helen Wardlaw   Daur/Unm/14/Scholar/Fife, Pittenweem
James Wardlaw   Son/12/Scholar/Fife, Pittenweem
Janet W Wardlaw   Daur/11/Scholar/Fife, Pittenweem

1901 : Woodend Cotton, Dunino, Fife
James Reid    (?Wardlaw)   Head/Mar/66/Farm Servant/Perthshire, Culross
Helen Reid     (?Wardlaw)   Wife/Mar/68/Farm Servant’s Wife/Fife, Anstruther Wester
Annie H--------   Gd Daur/14/Fife, St Andrews

It would be useful to find the James WARDLAW/Janet HAIG family on censuses.

1841/1851 would help.  Janet was deceased in Sept 1861 so, depending on when she died,  may not appear on the 1861 Census.  As I said, I haven’t gone out on that branch as yet ...

It occurs to me that Janet (HAIG) WARDLAW might have been widowed and re-married to a REID

No mention of it on the 1861 Marriage record (above).  Usually it’s shown ...

It would also be useful to find James WARDLAW b 1833 (or REID) in the 1841 and 1851 censuses (he might be with his parents ...).  Do you have that information?

No, sorry

Hope some of this helps

One wee correction:  Maggie Ann BROWN, a Fish-line-Bailer of 24 North Castle Street ... her occupation should read  "Fish-line-Baiter"

Regards

Chiad Fhear

[JAP]

Hi Chiad Fhear,

That certainly adds lots of useful information - especially the two censuses (1871 and 1901) which show James's birthplace as Culross, Perth!

My suggestion that Janet (HAIG) WARDLAW might have re-married a REID seems to be 'dead in the water' - as, on James's 1861 m.c., his mother is listed as deceased and as WARDLAW ms HAIG

So we are no closer to solving the puzzle of why James changed from WARDLAW to REID.  Perhaps he'd been a naughty boy in some way or other and didn't want to be traced ...

It does look as though trying to find James in 1841 and 1851, and trying to find his parents in various censuses, would be useful.

Unfortunately I don't have access to Scottish census info (other than through SP which costs).  Let's hope that others can find the information?

JAP 

[andycand]

Hi

1871 : 27 Abbey Street, St Andrews, Fife
James R Wardlaw   Head/Mar/36/General Labourer/Perthshire, Culross
Helen Wardlaw   Wife/Mar/37/Fife, Anstruther Wester
Helen Wardlaw   Daur/Unm/14/Scholar/Fife, Pittenweem
James Wardlaw   Son/12/Scholar/Fife, Pittenweem
Janet W Wardlaw   Daur/11/Scholar/Fife, Pittenweem

It looks like the family are spreads over 2 pages in the 1871 census as the first line of the next page is

John Wardlaw  son/9/scolar/Fife  Pittenween

Andy

[MonicaL]

Hi All

Early censuses info for the Wardlaw family.

1841:

Everyone showing as born in the County:

James Wardlaw 30, agr. lab.
Janet Wardlaw 30
James Wardlaw 7
Sarah Wardlaw 4
Janet Wardlaw 3

Address: Burgh Of Culross Not Fully Distinguished Into Stre(et?), Culross

1851:

There is a likely entry for James, working away from home:

James Warlaw, 16, agr. lab, b. Culross
Address: Kirklands, Ballingry, Fife

In respect of his family, I think his mother Janet may already have died. Everyone showing as born in Culross:

James Wardlaw 41
Sarah Wardlaw 15
Jessie Wardlaw 11
William Wardlaw 7
Richard D Wardlaw 5
Robert Wardlaw 4

Address:Sandhaven Close, Culross

Monica