McDonald - Urquhart & Glenmoriston

[young1451]

If I  am correct  that Aeneas/ Angus Grant of Duldraeggan b. 1702 and John Roy Grant  b. 1704 - 1707, are  brothers, then  John  Duldraeggan Grant b. 1737,  and Donald Grant Sr. [the Weaver  of  Craskie] Lot  13 South  Branch Road aka SBR, are 1st cousins, and Y -DNA from these 2 GRANT lines should bare this out. Therefore I think that this Donald may have lived at Craskie [perhaps his mother being forced by necessity to move there], but he would not REALLY be a Craskie Grant.

[young1451]

As mentioned previously,  my Captain  [at Culloden 1746] John Dhu McDonell VI  Ardnabie was the uncle of Simon Fraser Sr, so John's  sons were his 1st cousins. My Allen Bhuide McDonell b. 1730 was the  eldest son and Roderick Rory McDonell b.1732 was 2nd. Both  Roderick Rory McDonell and Simon Fraser Sr. married  women named  Isabella Grant [Simon's wife is from my Duldraeggan Grant  line].
Roderick Rory shared W 1/2 Lot 19  SBR  with his son  John Roy McDonell Sr. who married Nancy Grant  daughter of Donald Grant Sr. the  Weaver Lot 13 SBR.
I think this Donald Grant Sr. and Roderick  Rory  McDonell,  along with Captain KRRNY  Spanish John
McDonell  of Scotus, submitted a joint petition  to the British during the Rev War, to  take the fight back  into  NY to relieve their families.  I believe this led to the Burning  of  the Valleys NY. 

[young1451]

Recently, we have found two sons of my John Duldraeggan  Grant b. 1737 d. 1802 Lots   25&26    SSSRR, they lived at  L'Orignal  Upper Canada  Longueil  Twp. They are Honourable Alexander Grant of  L'Orignal who was a  Judge and Member  of Parliament,  operated Fur Trading Post called Duldraeggan Hall, and his brother Peter Grant of L'Orignal [probably also  lived at  Duldraeggan Hall]. This  Peter died   1811 [both these brothers  buried at  CASSBURN  Cemetery], and brother   Honourable Alexander produced Peter's WILL   at  Montreal in 1812 [WILL listed  piddling sums to surviving sisters  and illegitimate children], the bulk of  monies,  to go  to Honourable  Alexander.  I think  the Courts  were  Suspect  of this   WILL,  and forwarded  it to London England, where it was processed  in 1817. Other researchers have misread this WILL of Peter  Grant  of Longueil Upper Canada, and placed him erroneously  at Longueil Lower  Canada [near  Montreal].                         

[kfrye173]

Part 1 of 2

Just some push back on a couple assertions made above. 

In one entry, it states:

 "Aeneas/ Angus' younger brother  John  Roy  Grant b. abt. 1704- 1707, would be Transported to Caribbean after Culloden,  and probably did not return,  but he fathered Alexander,  Elspeth   [who married John McDonell one of the Good Men of Glenmoriston] and Donald  Grant Sr.  of Craskie [the Weaver] [all these kids settled South Branch Road  Charlottenburg  Glengarry Canada]"

and in another entry it states:

"If I  am correct  that Aeneas/ Angus Grant of Duldraeggan b. 1702 and John Roy Grant  b. 1704 - 1707, are  brothers, then  John  Duldraeggan Grant b. 1737,  and Donald Grant Sr. [the Weaver  of  Craskie] Lot  13 South  Branch Road aka SBR, are 1st cousins, and Y -DNA from these 2 GRANT lines should bare this out. Therefore I think that this Donald may have lived at Craskie [perhaps his mother being forced by necessity to move there], but he would not REALLY be a Craskie Grant.

In the second quotation, it states that the above author is making an assertion (not readily determined in the 1st statement)  which was born from his interpretive reading of the records and writings available to him, fair enough.  But there are other interpretations of this lineage that bear the same consideration.

One such interpretation was one held by the author's late cousin Francis Ross McDonald (sp).  In a letter from him to Evelyn Goulet, he indicates that he had come to understand that John Grant OF Craskie had two wives, the 1st wife leading to the birth of Patrick "the elder" OF Craskie b1671 (court record indicated age 50 in 1721). 

Another court document (CS) indicates that Patrick "the elder" b1671 OF Craskie had two sons (at least) Alexander "the younger" OF Craskie b1710 and that Alex had a younger brother Patrick (assumed to be Black Peter, bca1715) who was also titled as "OF Craskie" at a point in his life as indicated in the literature.

It is my assertion that the Wadset for Craskie flowed from John "twice married"  OF Craskie, to his 1st born son Patrick b1671 "the elder" OF Craskie, then to his 1st born son Alexander b1710 OF Craskie, and then once again upon Alex's untimely death in 1743 (33 at age of death per graveyard inscription), finally (?), it passed to his younger brother Patrick "Black Peter" OF Craskie. 

The Ross/Goulet Letter continues to describe...John Grant OF Craskie also had a 2nd son named John of Craskie by a 2nd wife. This John of Craskie "father of Isobel" is assumed to also be the father of the “Prisoner” John Craskie age 40 (b1707) Farmer as indicated in the Prisoner records. 

It makes sense that this John was not from the "OF Craskie" wadset inheritance lineage, in that he would have been 1st born in 1707 instead of Alex b1710, so he probably was a close cousin.

This places “prisoner” John b1707 farming alongside his cousin Patrick "black peter" OF Craskie who was also known to farm when not engaged in battle.  This John b1707 would have been "of" Craskie. 

In this piece, "OF" indicaties a stronger state of relationship to the locale "one who holds the wadest of Craskie" versus the diminutive "of" being a lesser stature, non- wadset owner.  In literature there is also a term "there" that appears to indicate a temporary relationship to a locale.   

[kfrye173]

Part 2 of 2

Several more, yawn, points need clarification. 

The "John Roy Grant" from the prison records was pretty clearly a wheelwright from Aberdeen who was holed up in Craskie "there" for a bit after Culloden and he was allowed to return to Aberdeen. 

This is a different John Grant, than John Grant Craskie Farmer age 40 when transported in 1747.  This information is obtained from a detailed analysis by Seton in a work called “Prisoners of the '45". 

Many people assume these people to be the same John (Roy) Grant and attribute DOBs of 1705 and 1706 to him as they look at the prisoner record and mistakenly assume "age 40" was calculated from the year 1745 Culloden or 1746 when John Grant Craskie farmer was a prisoner, but the record states the age was noted on the date of transport in 1747, so DOB 1707....assuming that he didn't lie about his age. LOL.

Not that John b1707 couldn't have had a middle name of Roy, it's just that there is no record that has come forth to my knowledge.  This conflation of the two john's has instilled a bit of doubt in Evelyn Goulet's previous work as to make her want to revisit this at some point in the future.

The literature is pretty clear about the concurrent existence of both Patrick "the elder" OF Craskie and John of Craskie "father of Isobel" as to solidify the reality that two Grant brothers (or ½ brothers) lived in Craskie at the same point in time and both had children there. 

The elder Patrick getting the wadset and the younger brother, John of Craskie, continued to live there in some capacity, fathering Isobel and quite likely John b1707 Craskie...speculation  sure, but the dates, location, meager records and familial circumstances appear to support such an assertion/guess.     

From the above mentioned entry "Therefore I think that this Donald may have lived at Craskie [perhaps his mother being forced by necessity to move there], but he would not REALLY be a Craskie Grant." obviously this is just one interpretation that explains this situation. 

I gladly surrender the possibility/probability that Donald Grant Craskie b1744 was not of the wadset lineage, and if by that, his labeling of Donald as "not REALLY.. a Craskie Grant" is in reference to that reality, I surrender. 

But, if by that passage, he implies that Donald Grant couldn't have been born and reared on Craskie and fathered through a Craskie branch of the Glenmoriston family tree, then I think I have shown enough potential for an alternate reality and it is just as valid an assertion/interpretation of the available information.  Obviously, Craskie was included in his U.E.L. Records for a reason.   

As always, these are just two possible scenarios based on little more than hearsay if judged in any legal environment and as such are sparsely informed pipe dreams, LOL.

As for the possibility of Y DNA shedding light on this situation: 1) Donald Grant Craskie Weaver's DNA has been tested and is known to match the the primary chiefly Grant line (there is a secondary chiefly line). 

This means he carried the same Y chromasome as the Grants of Grant and descends through a straight father to son lineage.  Dundreggan Grants and Glenmoriston Grant men also carry this same signature.   So we really can't discern much from all the men having the same Y signature.

However, little pieces of the Y chromosome mutate periodically (called SNPs).  To prove Mr. Young correct re: the presence of a Duldreggan descendant in Craskie as he proposes for Donald Grant, we would require at least two more male descendants from the Craskie line but not descending from Donald and two from known Duldreggan lines to add to our test data (which would be great). 

Then we would need for there to be a convenient mutation that would have occurred after their common ancestor (John the 3rd of GM) and before 1744 to delineate the two lines from each other and then see if Donald's DNA carried that mutation or not.

Though not impossible, it appears that this would be unlikely, still I'd love to see it.  All said, nothing is impossible and it was scrambled eggs in the glenn post culloden, so there are a lot of possible scenarios.

[young1451]

Hi Mr Frye. I have contacted both Geoff Grant and Hank Grant, of GRANT Y-DNA project, and am unaware that any Duldraeggan Grant Y-DNA has ever been submitted. Please state from whom, and file number, if you know it.
You state above "... after their common ancestor (John the Tutor)..."; which you apparently take to be the direct ancestor of BOTH the Craskie and Duldraeggan Grant lines, and this might not be so.
I think that Duncan Grant 1630 1730, was the 1st Grant to hold Wadset of Duldraeggan; probably aided by his wife's [Catherine McDonell] father Donald McDonell 8th Chief of Glengarry Scotland; and Duncan's Heir at Law was his greatgrandson [my] Aeneas/ Angus Grant of Duldraeggan 1702 1779.
By the way, Donald McDonell 8th Chief of Glengarry, is the Progenitor of the McDonell lines we know as Leek, Collachie, Aberchalder, Ardnabie, Scotus, Lundie ... . Cheers       J.

[kfrye173]

Yes, you are correct, there is a dearth of testers from the Craskie and Duldreggan areas of Glenmoriston.  I know of only one male descendant that has taken the test, this from the FamilyTreeDNA  Grant Surname project:

"Group A (Chiefly), Subgroup 1:R-P312>DF19>DF88>Z17274>Z21133+ (Fruechie, Corriemonie, Shuglie, Glenmoriston, Blairfindy & Kilgraston)....

...Kit 373375 - is tied to Lewis Grey Grant born circa 1767 in Craskie,Glenmoriston,Inverness, Scotland.

Self
Henry W. Grant – born 1920; died 2012
George A. Grant - born 1889 in Kenyon Township,Glengarry County, ON; died Ottawa, ON 1961
John A. Grant - born 1842 in Kenyon Township,Glengarry County, ON; died Sudbury, ON 1917
Angus Grant - born 1813 in CharlottenburghTownship, Glengarry County, ON; died Kenyon Township 1886
Lewis Grey Grant - born 1767 in Craskie,Glenmoriston, Inverness, Scotland; died Charlottenburgh 1846
Donald(Craskie) Grant Sr. - born in Craskie, Glenmoriston, Inverness,Scotland; died Charlottenburgh"

That is all we have to this point that I know of.  My prior statements were in regards to the minimal number of participants and DNA mutations necessary to prove/disprove the the Donald Grant lineage being from Craskie or Duldreggan.

Re: John the Tutor, I mis-spoke, soo many Johns and 111 degrees here today. As you know,  John the Tutor was one of the three sons of John, 3rd OF GM.  John the 3rd being the father of 1) Patrick IV OF GM, 2) John the Tutor - progenitor of the Coneachen Craskie lineage and 3) your Duncan - progenitor of the Duldreggan lineage, all noted in the Chiefs of Grant Book.  This has been corrected in the prior post.

So the addition of this deeper ancestor would increase the testing range by a generation, hypothetically allowing for a bit better chance of capturing an SNP mutation for our hypothetical DNA test.

Now as to whether the Donald Grant b1744 Craskie flowed from either the Glenmoriston Grants, Duldreggan Grants, Craskie Grants or other male descendant from the Chiefly lineage, this is still unknown. 

All that we do know is that he shares the same Y chromosome with all of them and there appears to be a number of possible paths for Donald to find himself in Craskie, including having been born from the Craskie Grant lineage(s).

If you are aware of any Duldreggan male descendants, please encourage them to take the test to help offer a better vision of the past.



       

   

[young1451]

Hi. I know of a goodly number of direct GRANT descendants of my John Duldraeggan Grant 1737 1802, of Lots 25&26 Street Road Charlottenburg Glengarry Ont. None seem interested in this Y-DNA project.
As I mentioned, my Duldraeggan bunch, were strongly aligned with their cousin McDonell, they have intermarried for 5oo+ years; including my Flora McDonell Young's 1st cousin John Roy McDonell Sr of South Branch Road aka SBR marrying his neighbour, sister of your Lewis Grey Grant Lot 13 SBR. These men, along with [my] Duncan Grant Lot 20 SBR, were on Joint Petition 1833, and all on Old UE List. J.

[DonM]

kfrye173

I haven't read this post for years so the activity the last two days spiked my interest.

Your factoid re Peter Grant in Skye caught my attention.  I assume this is just hypothesis as no BMD records prior to 1800 for Skye survived.  And the number of surviving OPR births of all Grant's on Skye 1800-1855 is less than 50 suggesting a small population.

The other statement was that Alexander Grant (2nd Lieutenant Governor of Upper Canada), was also a Judge. He was a Justice of the Peace which is completely different. A JP's role is civil only settling minor disputes and representing the Governor's office in matters of state.  There were 4 JP's each assigned to an area.  Given his residence was at Grosse Point I'll assume he had the SW division which was west of the Grand River to the St. Clair River. 

Don