Lamont's from Scotland

[Chezz]

Hi KAJ58,
I'm sorry to as it would have been good to finish that side.
Good hunting,I hope you find your McGuire's.
Chezz.

[Chezz]

Thanks Monica I had not read that when I wrote to KAJ58 and told her good hunting but just maybe we might have the same family,as I had no idea that there could have been more sisters for my great grandmother,if I have read this right.
I will try and work this all out and see where I go from here.
Thank you again.
Chezz.

[KAJ58]

Hi Monica,

With all your help I have found a few things - Margaret McIlhenny lived or her husband died at 29 Shaw Street, Greenock; John McGuire and Margaret were at 34 Shaw Street, Greenock when they got married. William died 10 months before Margaret (my Grandmother) was born.

Do you know how I would go about finding the Prison records? 

Chezz, I sent you a separate message - Lizzie McGuire was a witness at Margaret's wedding at Glasgow in 1908 - Her address was 142 Waddell Street, Glasgow - both parents John and Margaret are listed as still being alive. 

[Chezz]

Hi KAJ58,
I'm bit confused as for some reason back in those days they kept using the same names.
Your grandmother was Margaret  who McIlHenny or McGuire,was she Margarets and Williams daughter or Margaret & Johns daughter which would make her my great grandmothers sister is that right.
Chezz.

[KAJ58]

Hi Chezz,

I am confused too - The birth registration has William McIlhenny listed as father but says "illegitimate" and he died 10 months before she was born I am going to try and find some more information out through prison records because that is where she was born.  I know the address listed for John McGuire and Margaret McElhinney(Harkins) marriage (1886) was very close to the address for William and Margaret (in 1879) when William died.

I think Margaret McGuire(my gm) was either a sister or half sister to your Grandmother but yet to be proved. 

[MonicaL]

Regarding possible prison records for Margaret Harkins McIlhenny, the main place to check would be the National Archives of Scotland site, here www.nas.gov.uk/onlineCatalogue  I have checked already but couldn't really see anything for her unfortunately. Local newspapers may also have carried something? Margaret may have been in for something that we today consider really trivial, hard to say really until you find the records....

One thing that might help if they can be found are any application for poor relief that Margaret may have made. With William having died when he did (or even before), life may well have been hard. Also, after she came out of prison, life would have been tough.

Potentially the search would be for her under her names and address up to when William died and then address for when she married John McGuire. The checks can also be made for Margaret's daughters. We expect lots of additonal issues given:

As possibilities, we have daughter Mary McIlhenny (or at least who I think is her daughter) showing at a Glasgow Catholic orphanage as an inmate in 1881. We also have Lizzie in 1901 also at Smyllum Orphanage, Lanark. We haven't as yet found young Margaret in 1891.

I think these are obviously signs of a troubled family and economic situation where likely care had to be applied for the girls in their early years.

The main issue with following through on possible poor relief applications for all the family are that these are not available online and need personal look up. Not sure what is kept where now as there have been some recent changes on locations of archives. I would imagine that the Mitchell Library in Glasgow and or the Watt Library in Greenock would be good places tp start any enquiries and searches.

Monica

[Chezz]

Hi Monica,
Thank you for the information.
I have been looking at what you sent before and Annie McGuire was on Elizabeth & John Lamonts marriage certificate in 1909.
I have Annie born 1887  & Elizabeth born 1889 in Greenock but going by the census under neath, Elizabeth should have been born 1890.

I have a census paper 1891 here.

John McGuire 41,
Margaret McGuire 40
Ann McGuire 4
Elizabeth McGuire 1

That was at the addresss 59 Dalrymple St, Greenock.


You are a very big help Monica and I want to say thanks. 
Chezz.

[MonicaL]

Bits are coming together aren't they  So, we believe that Annie was witness to Lizzie's wedding and Lizzie was witness to Margaret's wedding. We just need to find Mary's wedding to finish the links 

Chezz, don't worry about the census ages showing for Lizzie. These often can be out a bit, a year or so is normal, sometimes more. The key thing is always the birth cert for confirmation of age, after that, it is in many cases a circa on different types of records!

So, in summary of where I think you both are so far:

Margaret Harkins was born in Greenock and married first William McIlhenny in the late 1860s (has anyone checked this cert to compare it to the 1886 marriage cert for Margaret to John McGuire?). Two daughters born from that marriage from IGI. We think the first, Rose, died as a baby (death cert available to view on SP). We haven't found William McIlhenny in 1871 (don't really know much about him so far). A possible entry for Margaret working in 1871.

We then jump to 1881. William has died a few years earlier. Margaret has given birth to young Margaret (William not the father as she shows as illegitimate on her birth entry) and both show as living at West Prison in Greenock for 1881. NAS is not showing records for Margaret Harkins (or we haven't found any as yet). We think we have daughter Mary McIlhenny showing in a home in Glasgow for 1881.

A gap in the early to mid 1880s. We then jump to the second marriage of Margaret Harkins to John McGuire. We have the census entry for them in 1891 with new children Annie and Lizzie. Mary we have likely working back in Greenock...Margaret we haven't found yet. There is however in 1891 a census entry at the same home we found Mary McIlhenny at in 1881:

Margaret McGuire, 10, inmate b. Greenock
Catholic Orphanage for Females at 72 Abercromby Street, Glasgow

1901 we think the three (half) sisters Mary, Margaret and Annie are living together, using McGuire surname, in Greenock. Lizzie, the youngest, we think is at Smyllum in Lanarkshire. We haven't found John McGuire or Margaret Harkins for that census.

The early 1900s bring the marriages of Lizzie and Margaret that have been found and also the death of Margaret Harkins  we think in 1909 in Gourock (not sure if this has been checked). No idea what happened to John McGuire and when and where he died?

If I could wish anything for both of you to do with your family research....it would be to find poor relief records for them 

Have a look at these TV films on the Mitchell Library www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,522720.0.html. Parts 5 and 6 in particular will give you a flavour of what can be found on poor relief records.

Monica 

[Chezz]

Thank you so much Monica and yes thats about what I have here.
I will have a look at the TV show.
Does KAJ58 get this message to?
You are a gem for doing this as I am not that great at finding things lol.
Thank you again Chezz.