Author Topic: ARMSTRONG/SINCLAIR in Dunfermline c. 1830  (Read 2747 times)

Offline fionajka

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Re: ARMSTRONG/SINCLAIR in Dunfermline c. 1830
« Reply #9 on: Sunday 07 December 08 20:45 GMT (UK) »
I am posting an email I received from an Ancestry member also working with this family, and my response, to see if anyone reading this can spot any further details that I fail to pick up on which could possibly help us work this muddle out...



Fiona,
I understand your frustrations.  I, too, have had problems with Isabella Armstrong.  Isabella names her parents Thomas Armstrong & Mary Sinclair on her parish marriage record and on her parish death record.  I cannot find a marriage for Thomas & Mary.  I do find a death of a Mary Sinclair in the Pre-1855 Fife Family History Society Death Index for 5 May 1842, age 30, in Dunfermline.  Isabella would have been 3 years old.  I find in the 1841 & 1851 census Isabella, age 3 & 13, living with her uncle William Sinclair in Dunfermline.  That possibly would make sense if her mother died in 1842.  I find a marriage of Thomas Armstong in 1845 in Dunfermline to Euphemia Duff but no mention that he was a widower.  This Thomas Armstrong names his parents as Thomas Armstrong & Margaret Burt.  Isabella's uncle William Sinclair would probably have been Mary Sinclair's brother.  I find William Sinclair's death 9 Dec 1860 in Dunfermline age 80 (so born about 1781) and he names his parents as Thomas Sinclair and Mary Mackie.  I can't find that they had a daughter, Mary.  I do find that they had a daughter, Margaret, born 29 1784, Dunfermline and other children, but no Mary.  I thought our Mary would have been born about 1812 so that is a lot of years difference.  I find Thomas Armstrong's death, widower of Euphemia Duff, 7 Dec 1897 in the Poorhouse, Dunfermline.  No mention of a previous marriage.


RESPONSE:

In relation to Isabella - well, everything you write fits with what I have found so far. My only question at this stage is, how were you able to link William Sinclair as her uncle? The reason I ask this is because in the 1841/1851 census she is listed as a niece, but she could have been the grandniece of the woman living with William, Elspet Burt - sister of Margaret Burt whose son was Thomas Armstrong. The IGI has Elspet and Margaret with parents John Burt and Agnes. Or is it possible that William Sinclair is in fact Mary's father? I can't seem to find her birth details either or a marriage for William, other than him being with Elspet Burt for years.

I'm also not sure that the death of Mary Sinclair in 1842 is Isabella's mother because in 1881 she is living with Isabella and Alexander as a widow, also using the name SINCLAIR still. So either she simply had Isabella illegitimately and called  herself a widow or she did marry someone else after Isabella was born are possibilities. Another idea is that the Thomas Armstrong you found who is the father of Thomas Armstrong who married Euphemia Duff is actually the father of Isabella nd not his son. It is possible that Thomas (the elder) was actually married to Margaret Burt who died and then he hooked up with Mary Sinclair - that would explain the niece connection to Elspet Burt and William Sinclair, although I don't know what their relationship is.

Unfortunately, I have no further documentation than you - no marriage for Thomas Armstrong (elder) to either Margaret Burt or Mary Sinclair. We do know that according to Isabella's marriage certificate that her father was still alive in 1855 but deceased in 1896 at her own death, although her mother Mary Armstrong (Sinclair) is not listed as deceased at this time. Just noticed that she is listed as ARMSTRONG, not SINCLAIR on the cert, will follow that up.

Or the other theory is that Isabella is the illegitimate daughter of Mary Sinclair and Thomas Armstrong who went on to Marry Euphemia Duff and had loads of children - he would have been around eighteen at the time whereas Mary would have been 25, so possible. the question then begs - why does Mary still call herself SINCLAIR in 1881 and listed as a widow and why is she listed as ARMSTRONG in 1896 on Isabella's death certificate.

Still clear as mud!

Fiona

Offline fionajka

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Re: ARMSTRONG/SINCLAIR in Dunfermline c. 1830
« Reply #10 on: Saturday 23 April 22 15:03 BST (UK) »
Hello All,
I am having another go at breaking through a brick wall, but coming up with no answers as yet.

Isabella ARMSTRONG b. (6) March 1838, Dunfermline
Parents: Thomas ARMSTRONG (coal miner) and Mary SINCLAIR

This information is all gleaned from her 16 April 1855, Dunfermline marriage certificate to Alexander ANDERSON. I have yet to confirm her parents or birth as I am yet to locate a birth record.

The 1841 (White Mire Place) and 1851 (Rumblingwell) censuses have Isabella living with a William SINCLAIR. In the 1851 census she is listed as Williams 'niece', but I assumed he was in fact her grandfather due to his age. Though I may be wrong.

I have no information about her father Thomas ARMSTRONG

All I know about her mother is that she visited Isabella (now ANDERSON) in 1881. Her name is still Mary SINCLAIR b. 1815, Dunfermline, showing that she retained/reverted to her maiden name at this time. One death record for a Mary SINCLAIR occurs in 1886, Dunfermline, but that has her maiden name as STRUTHERS.

It goes without saying, that I have scoured the SP registrations for births/marriages/deaths of all parties involved, but my eyes may no longer be seeing things clearly, so any help that anyone can offer would be greatly appreciated.


Offline Milliepede

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Re: ARMSTRONG/SINCLAIR in Dunfermline c. 1830
« Reply #11 on: Saturday 23 April 22 15:45 BST (UK) »
Have you looked for her birth under Isabella Sinclair?

1841 Fife has an

Isabella Sinclair 35
Mary Sinclair 25

together in case they were sisters and Mary named her daughter after her

Hinchliffe - Huddersfield Wiltshire
Burroughs - Arlingham Glos
Pick - Frocester Glos

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Re: ARMSTRONG/SINCLAIR in Dunfermline c. 1830
« Reply #12 on: Saturday 23 April 22 16:14 BST (UK) »
Duplicate thread https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=346092.0

Isabella ARMSTRONG b. (6) March 1838, Dunfermline
Parents: Thomas ARMSTRONG (coal miner) and Mary SINCLAIR
Does it say 'Mary Sinclair' or 'Mary Armstrong MS Sinclair'? Because if it just says 'Mary Sinclair' it indicates that Isabella was illegitimate, which would explain why you can't find a marriage.

It might also explain why Mary's name is listed later as Mary Sinclair, though in Scotland married women don't give up their maiden surname on marriage, and it isn't uncommon to find a wife listed in a census by her own surname rather than her husband's.

In that case you need to look at the minutes of Dunfermline Kirk Session (online at Scotland's People) to see if there is any reference to Mary Sinclair between 1837 and 5 or 10 years later.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.


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Re: ARMSTRONG/SINCLAIR in Dunfermline c. 1830
« Reply #13 on: Saturday 23 April 22 16:31 BST (UK) »
the Fife Probate records aren't giving me any joy.
'Probate' does not exist in Scotland. The correct term for the corresponding process in Scotland is 'Confirmation'.

Various commercial web sites lump indexes to Scottish Confirmations in with other countries' probates.

Go to www.scotlandspeople.go.uk for access to the original documents, unadulterated by Ancestry or any other commercial web site.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline fionajka

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Re: ARMSTRONG/SINCLAIR in Dunfermline c. 1830
« Reply #14 on: Saturday 23 April 22 16:33 BST (UK) »
Isabella's mother is listed as Mary ARMSTRONG - maiden name SINCLAIR, although she identifies herself as Sinclair in 1881C.

I have looked for her birth using multiple combinations of Isabella, I*, Armstong, Sinclair, Thomas, Mary etc... old parochial births/baptisms across churches...

Offline fionajka

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Re: ARMSTRONG/SINCLAIR in Dunfermline c. 1830
« Reply #15 on: Saturday 23 April 22 16:41 BST (UK) »
And thank you for the link to the previous queries made back in 2008, when I was exploring this family group previously... I'll go back through those with a fine-tooth comb to glean any further information from those investigations ... I had forgotten about the role of Elspeth BURT (ARMSTRONG) who Isabella was living with along with William SINCLAIR....

Cheers,
Fiona

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Re: ARMSTRONG/SINCLAIR in Dunfermline c. 1830
« Reply #16 on: Saturday 23 April 22 16:46 BST (UK) »
Isabella's mother is listed as Mary ARMSTRONG - maiden name SINCLAIR, although she identifies herself as Sinclair in 1881C.
Still wouldn't do any harm to check the Kirk Session minutes - people are sometimes less than 100% truthful when it comes to hiding illegitimacy.

Quote
I have looked for her birth using multiple combinations of Isabella, I*, Armstong, Sinclair, Thomas, Mary etc... old parochial births/baptisms across churches...
It may just be that the record of her baptism, if it ever existed, has not survived.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline trystan

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Re: ARMSTRONG/SINCLAIR in Dunfermline c. 1830
« Reply #17 on: Saturday 23 April 22 17:15 BST (UK) »
This potic has now been merged with the older one. :)

Trystan
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