Author Topic: Any Mummers Here?  (Read 9928 times)

Offline Mowsehowse

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Re: Any Mummers Here?
« Reply #27 on: Tuesday 17 January 17 08:07 GMT (UK) »
( continued from genjen)
 It was packed! What really interests me is that 12 years ago we went on a Nile cruise. One night the entertainment was a group of Nubian dancers and their dances were almost identical (steps and all) to Morris. Even the stick dances!

I am trying to find a direct connection between Border Morris dancing and any North African Moorish influence.

I will be very glad of any links or Youtube clips that provide the proof.

I have watched a few Nubian stick dancing clips from Youtube, and apart from the fact that there is only so much you can do with sticks, I really do not see a similarity to the Border Morris tradition.
BORCHARDT in Poland/Germany, BOSKOWITZ in Czechoslovakia, Hungary + Austria, BUSS in Baden, Germany + Switzerland, FEKETE in Hungary + Austria, GOTTHILF in Hammerstein + Berlin, GUBLER, GYSI, LABHARDT & RYCHNER in Switzerland, KONIG & KRONER in Germany, PLACZEK, WUNSCH & SILBERBERG in Poland.

Also: ROWSE in Brixham, Tenby, Hull & Ramsgate. Strongman, in Falmouth. Champion. Coke. Eame/s. Gibbons. Passmore. Pulsever. Sparkes in Brixham & Ramsgate. Toms in Cornwall. Waymoth. Wyatt.

Online Gillg

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Re: Any Mummers Here?
« Reply #28 on: Tuesday 17 January 17 10:49 GMT (UK) »
There is a very different tradition of the Mummers in the Rochdale district of Lancashire, see http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=353719.0

Maybe it doesn't happen any more, but I have a childhood memory of groups of children appearing at the door, with blackened faces and dressed as charwomen, who went round the house with their dusters and brushes sweeping out the old year, never saying a word, but humming "Mmmmmm" all the time.  Our Pace Egg activities took place at Easter (hence the name) and included St George, the Dragon and the Quack Doctor.  There may have been Morris dancers, but I don't remember them. 
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

FAIREY/FAIRY/FAREY/FEARY, LAWSON, CHURCH, BENSON, HALSTEAD from Easton, Ellington, Eynesbury, Gt Catworth, Huntingdon, Spaldwick, Hunts;  Burnley, Lancs;  New Zealand, Australia & US.

HURST, BOLTON,  BUTTERWORTH, ADAMSON, WILD, MCIVOR from Milnrow, Newhey, Oldham & Rochdale, Lancs., Scotland.

Online ggrocott

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Re: Any Mummers Here?
« Reply #29 on: Tuesday 17 January 17 15:34 GMT (UK) »
I notice you seem to have forgotten all about Open Morris! 

I don't think there is a direct connection between Border Morris and North African Moorish influences, as has been stated ad infinitum elsewhere (go on facebook if you really want to see the arguements), the face painting (often black) that is a feature of Border is traditionally said to be about disguise - it is, unlike Cotswold, a winter tradition, probably in order to gain money and you didn't necessarily want the neighbours/boss to know it was you doing it.

We are now out of mumming season and are wassailing all over the place!
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Tagg, Bowyer (Berkshire/Surrey), Adams, Small, Pratt, Coles, Stevens, Cox (Bucks), Grocott, Slater, Dean, Hill (Staffs/Shropshire), Holloway, Flint, Warrington,Turnbull (London), Montague, Barrett (Herts), Hayward (Kent), Gallon, Knight, Ede, Tribe, Bunn, Northeast, Nicholds (Sussex) Penduck, Pinnell, Yeeles (Gloucs), Johns (Monmouth and Devon), Head (Bath), Tedbury, Bowyer (Somerset), Chapman, Barrett (Herts/Essex)

Offline genjen

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Re: Any Mummers Here?
« Reply #30 on: Tuesday 17 January 17 16:05 GMT (UK) »
I notice you seem to have forgotten all about Open Morris! 

I don't think there is a direct connection between Border Morris and North African Moorish influences, as has been stated ad infinitum elsewhere (go on facebook if you really want to see the arguements), the face painting (often black) that is a feature of Border is traditionally said to be about disguise - it is, unlike Cotswold, a winter tradition, probably in order to gain money and you didn't necessarily want the neighbours/boss to know it was you doing it.

We are now out of mumming season and are wassailing all over the place!

I agree with you that the blacked-up border sides did so originally to avoid being recognised by bosses and by the clergy because they were, in effect, begging on the streets - absolutely necessary in many cases during the Winter months when the farm labouring jobs were more scarce than in the Spring and Summer months. I'm not getting into the blacking-up debate because, quite frankly, I am bored with it. I inhabit the world of Morris (albeit as a retired musician) and sometimes it seems that many of my friends have little or nothing else with which to fill their brains!

Wassailing events by the bucket load last weekend! I was out on Saturday, celebrating and wishing our damson orchard a good growing season. When I got home on Sunday, my Facebook page was awash with others doing likewise all over the place! :D
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

ESS: Howe French Cant Annis Noakes Turner Marshall Makerow Duck Spurden Harmony
SCT: Howe Shaw Raitt Milne Forsyth Birnie Crichton Duncan McBeath Daniel Hay Robertson Jaffrey Smith McDonald Alexander Craighead
NRY: Bushby Smith Bland Iley Cunion Kendrew Thornbury Favell Lonsdale Crossland Rudd Pratt Gibson
WES; Dickenson Jackson Ewbank Waller
STS: White
SRY: Knight
DUR: Smith Littlefair
HAM: Williams Grose Lush Venson


Offline Mowsehowse

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Re: Any Mummers Here?
« Reply #31 on: Tuesday 17 January 17 16:10 GMT (UK) »
I notice you seem to have forgotten all about Open Morris! 

I don't think there is a direct connection between Border Morris and North African Moorish influences, as has been stated ad infinitum elsewhere (go on facebook if you really want to see the arguements), the face painting (often black) that is a feature of Border is traditionally said to be about disguise - it is, unlike Cotswold, a winter tradition, probably in order to gain money and you didn't necessarily want the neighbours/boss to know it was you doing it.

We are now out of mumming season and are wassailing all over the place! 

I bet that's fun.

I am inclined to agree with you Ggrocott, about the face blacking, but it would be good to find some sort of proof I feel.  Perhaps the response to complaints about face blacking might be to start using white face paint.
BORCHARDT in Poland/Germany, BOSKOWITZ in Czechoslovakia, Hungary + Austria, BUSS in Baden, Germany + Switzerland, FEKETE in Hungary + Austria, GOTTHILF in Hammerstein + Berlin, GUBLER, GYSI, LABHARDT & RYCHNER in Switzerland, KONIG & KRONER in Germany, PLACZEK, WUNSCH & SILBERBERG in Poland.

Also: ROWSE in Brixham, Tenby, Hull & Ramsgate. Strongman, in Falmouth. Champion. Coke. Eame/s. Gibbons. Passmore. Pulsever. Sparkes in Brixham & Ramsgate. Toms in Cornwall. Waymoth. Wyatt.

Offline ThrelfallYorky

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Re: Any Mummers Here?
« Reply #32 on: Tuesday 17 January 17 16:20 GMT (UK) »
Gillg, I can totally confirm what you say. When I was a young child I was terrified out of my mind one winter night, when  a group of people, older than children, I think, who came into our kitchen, humming or mumming as you said, and swept around the table. I think they were given drink and cake before they swept out. (Perhaps that was the way to get them to go?) I also think it was somewhere round Christmas / New Year it took place - but over in Yorkshire, not Rochdale in our case.
The Pace Egg plays you mention are familiar too, and are still done each year by at least two groups touring round in the upper Calder Valley, so, quite close to the Lancashire border, and not all that far from Rochdale.
The speeches quoted seem word-for-word from these, and they are not just a Morris Tradition - the closest Morris-type dancers to that area would be the Brittannia Coconut Dancers, and it certainly wasn't them!
I think a School in the area started doing them in the 1950s, and later another group sort of "muscled in" and now seems almost to have supplanted the children/ young people doing the Pace (or Pascal) Egg plays. Years later I did a remembered version of the traditional Pace Egg Play for a young theatre group I knew, and they performed it with great aplomb.
Your account brought memories flooding back, though.
Threlfall (Southport), Isherwood (lancs & Canada), Newbould + Topliss(Derby), Keating & Cummins (Ireland + lancs), Fisher, Strong& Casson (all Cumberland) & Downie & Bowie, Linlithgow area Scotland . Also interested in Leigh& Burrows,(Lancashire) Griffiths (Shropshire & lancs), Leaver (Lancs/Yorks) & Anderson(Cumberland and very elusive)

Online ggrocott

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Re: Any Mummers Here?
« Reply #33 on: Tuesday 17 January 17 17:00 GMT (UK) »

I am inclined to agree with you Ggrocott, about the face blacking, but it would be good to find some sort of proof I feel.  Perhaps the response to complaints about face blacking might be to start using white face paint.

There is plenty of 'proof' re. blacking as disguise in both Border and Molly dancing and white face paint or indeed any other colour does not have the same effect and would be subject to different complaints.  I have to say I too am fed up with the subject - I just wish we could all agree to live and let live both inside and outside the Morris World.  There are plenty of things I find offensive but that doesn't mean I think they should necessarily be banned or blackballed!
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Tagg, Bowyer (Berkshire/Surrey), Adams, Small, Pratt, Coles, Stevens, Cox (Bucks), Grocott, Slater, Dean, Hill (Staffs/Shropshire), Holloway, Flint, Warrington,Turnbull (London), Montague, Barrett (Herts), Hayward (Kent), Gallon, Knight, Ede, Tribe, Bunn, Northeast, Nicholds (Sussex) Penduck, Pinnell, Yeeles (Gloucs), Johns (Monmouth and Devon), Head (Bath), Tedbury, Bowyer (Somerset), Chapman, Barrett (Herts/Essex)

Offline Mowsehowse

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Re: Any Mummers Here?
« Reply #34 on: Tuesday 17 January 17 17:39 GMT (UK) »
I have to say I am inclined to agree about that too!
BORCHARDT in Poland/Germany, BOSKOWITZ in Czechoslovakia, Hungary + Austria, BUSS in Baden, Germany + Switzerland, FEKETE in Hungary + Austria, GOTTHILF in Hammerstein + Berlin, GUBLER, GYSI, LABHARDT & RYCHNER in Switzerland, KONIG & KRONER in Germany, PLACZEK, WUNSCH & SILBERBERG in Poland.

Also: ROWSE in Brixham, Tenby, Hull & Ramsgate. Strongman, in Falmouth. Champion. Coke. Eame/s. Gibbons. Passmore. Pulsever. Sparkes in Brixham & Ramsgate. Toms in Cornwall. Waymoth. Wyatt.

Offline Marmalady

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Re: Any Mummers Here?
« Reply #35 on: Tuesday 17 January 17 18:28 GMT (UK) »
So the question must be asked....Do I know you????  :D :D :D

Which side do you dance with?

Mr Marma dances with the most hyphenated Morris Side -- Chapel-en-le-Frith

Our local Border side (Powderkegs) have decided to continue blacking up but to add some other colours on top of the black
Wainwright - Yorkshire
Whitney - Herefordshire
Watson -  Northamptonshire
Trant - Yorkshire
Helps - all
Needham - Derbyshire
Waterhouse - Derbyshire
Northing - all