An Irishman named Henry, ca. 1870

[tucson mike]

I've hit a brick wall with regard to my great-grandfather, so I'm looking for clues. Here's something I found, but I don't know if it means anything.

My grandfather was James Carrol(l), and his father Henry Carrol. James was born about 1880 in New York, New York.  I went to the US Federal Census for that city & did exact searches in 1870 for "James Carrol" and "Henry Carrol".

This results in 32 for James, but only 4 for Henry. In addition, all 32 James were born in the US or Ireland, while one Henry was born in Deutschland. So "Henry Carrol" appears to be a relatively uncommon name for an Irish Catholic in New York in 1870.

Drawing on my limited knowledge of the history of the British Isles, I also recall that "Henry" is best known as the name of kings of England. Not what a good Irish Catholic would call his son??

I'm wondering if my Henry Carrol is perhaps not Irish Catholic after all. Or if it's a clue that he's from a particular part of Ireland. (Belfast?) Or that if his father was Irish Catholic, his mother wasn't?

All of this is highly conjectural, so I don't expect any firm answers, but I'd appreciate any comments.

[aghadowey]

Totally confused by the information you've posted here.
'Deutschland' is Germany not Ireland- could this be a mis-transcription?
If I'm reading your post correctly James Carrol was born c1880 in New York. If that's the case it's entirely possible that his father Henry wasn't even living in America in 1870 which is about ten years before James would have been born.
As with any sort of research you need to go through the available records step by step instead of jumping about looking for people with the same name.

Start with James Carroll born c1880 New York. Have you found a record of him in 1900 (or later) U.S. census records? they should list where both of his parents were born (state if U.S. born or country).
Do you know the name of James' mother? this might help find James' parents in 1900 (or later) U.S. census records. James' marriage certificate might record the names of both parents.

P.S. the Christian name of Henry doesn't prove or disprove a possible Irish Catholic connection.

[tucson mike]

Yes, of course Deutschland is Germany not Ireland, the point being that of the four named "Henry Carrol", one was not born in Ireland or the USA. So taking the 1870 census as a sample, the name "James Carrol" is ten times more common than the name "Henry Carrol", for Irish Americans in NYC.

This fact that "Henry Carrol" is relatively uncommon holds regardless of whether one of them was or was not my great-grandfather.

I am not "jumping about looking for people with the same name."

As you say, my post totally confused you.

[aghadowey]

Was James Carroll's father Henry a schoolteacher by any chance? Have you found James in 1900 census yet?

[tucson mike]

Please understand that my original post was about how common certain names are, at a certain time & place. If I were looking for help with finding a particular person, I would have provided different information & posted to a different forum.

But to answer your question: The 1900 US Census for NYC lists James, his mother, and two sisters younger than him. His mother is listed as a widow. I have no information as to Henry's occupation. The 1890 census as you know was largely destroyed. The youngest daughter was born in 1885, and there were only 3 children I know of, so my guess is that Henry died before 1890 anyway, but that's just a guess. I have not located the family in the 1880 census.

[aghadowey]

I understand now you were looking for more general information about how common the name Henry Carroll might have been amongst Irish families but I am trying to help you and I do have a reason for asking these questions.

IGI- There's a James C. Carroll (born N.Y.) m.(1905 Manhattan) to Mary Stone. Son of Henry Carroll and Annie Cleary.

1900 Census- Annie Carroll age 42 born Ireland widow to US 1869 (born 17 Apr.1858). Son James Carroll 21 born N.Y. father born Ireland (born 10 Feb.1879). Also 2 daughters Annie (18) and May (14).

1910 Census- Manhattan: James C. Carroll age 31 born N.Y. listed with wife Mamie 30 (married 6 years), children Helen 4, Ana 3, James 2, Walter 1 3/12 and two other people in household.

Are the marriage and both census records for the same James Carroll?

[tucson mike]

Wow, that was quick. Yes, those are all for the same James Carroll. There's also a WWI Draft Registration card for him, and he's in the 1920 & 1930 censuses too. But I have all that already. It just took me a lot longer!

Before 1900, I have nothing: the brick wall. I still think that statistically a Henry Carrol is more likely to be Protestant than Catholic. Ancestry.com has info on surname frequency, but not "Christian" name frequency. I've never seen anything on that.

[aghadowey]

Right. Now that you've confirmed I'm on the right track I can explain what I've found about your Henry Carroll.

In the 1900 census James Carroll's mother Annie was listed as a widow born 17 Apr.1858 in Ireland and arriving in U.S. 1869. James' information lists his birth as 10 Feb. 1879 with both parents as born in Ireland. Therefore you are looking for a Henry Carroll born in Ireland who died after 1886 (when James' sister May was born) and before 1900 census.
Right? WRONG. You can't believe everything in the census.

In 1910 census James C. Carroll lists his mother as born in Ireland but his father as born in New York!
In 1920 census James Carroll still lists his father as born New York (and has added 4 more children to his family).
In 1930 census James lists his father again as born New York and mother as born Waterford Ireland.

From all the details above in the 1880 census there should be Henry Carroll (born New York or Ireland?) with wife Annie (or Ann, Agnes, etc. born c1858 Ireland) with infant son James (born 1879 New York) but I can't see any such family although maybe you'll be able to find them somewhere there.

Without more information, like 1880 census, marriage certificate for James' parents or Henry's death certificate, it will be difficult to know for sure whether or not Henry was born in Ireland or New York (perhaps of Irish parents).

[Rody Lee]

Hi Mike,

Just to address some of the statistical issues you raised I did a quick count on the 1911 Dublin Census and found the following:

James Carroll, 123 individuals have this name.
James Carrol, 2
Henry Carroll, 10
Henry Carrol, 0

I think its fair to say that James is more common than Henry and Carroll is more common than Carrol - but anyone could have told you that.

As Dublin in 1911 was one of the largest population centres in Ireland and relatively more representative of the general population (rather than say, Belfast or Connemara) I took a count on the religion of the 10 Henry Carrolls.

Result:

7 Catholic,
3 Church of Ireland.

I think it reasonable to conclude, on a statistical basis, that the name Henry Carroll, in Ireland, is more likely to be Catholic.

At the end of the day what does it matter? It tells you nothing about your specific Henry Carrol(l).