Author Topic: Help solve the Leicestershire Stilton Cheese mystery  (Read 10993 times)

Offline Suttonrog

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Re: Help solve the Leicestershire Stilton Cheese mystery
« Reply #9 on: Thursday 18 December 08 15:22 GMT (UK) »
Like Trish I have had lttle joy in finding any of your names that actually fit.

The best summing up I have found is from Zingerman's Guide to Good eating:

"The 1st written refrence to the cheese dates from 1722. The woman most creditied with inventing Stilton was one Elizabeth Scarbrow (sic) who became well known for making very good early versions of it on the estate of Lady Beaumont at Quenby Hall. She later married a Mr Orton and continued making the cheese on his nearby farm. Credit for modern Stilton is given to Frances Pawlett who intrduced a series of imnprovements... Some say Pawlett was the daughter of Mrs Orton"

So we have another name to try and find.

Rog


Offline Kirwan

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More Leicestershire Stilton Cheese mystery
« Reply #10 on: Thursday 18 December 08 21:01 GMT (UK) »
The Biggleswade connection looked promising except that the New York article gives the six children of Cooper and Mary Thornhill as:
Frances (baptised in Stilton 25 December 1737.  died before her father), Joseph (baptised 5 April 1739, died 26 Nov 1739), Ann, Mary, Elizabeth and Susanna.

As to Frances Pawlett nee Pick, she was born 1720 in Sproxton (pronounced 'sprowson') near Melton Mowbray, Leicestershire and baptised there on 12th March.  Clearly therefore she cannot have been the originator of Stilton Cheese, which was already well known in 1722.  Her maiden name was Pick, second daughter of Richard and Dorothy Pick and named after Richard's grandmother.  Richard died in 1752 and Dorothy in 1763, both being buried in Wymondham, near Sproxton.  Frances married William Pawlett 13th October 1742.

Once again many thanks but we need to find another Mary Thornhill other than the Biggleswade one.

Kirwan

Offline bedfordshire boy

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Re: Help solve the Leicestershire Stilton Cheese mystery
« Reply #11 on: Sunday 21 December 08 10:37 GMT (UK) »
I wouldn't write off the Biggleswade marriage. They only baptised two children in Biggleswade, as posted by Trish. Their first born, Cooper, was buried at Biggleswade on 14 March 1732. This is the only Thornhill burial in Biggleswade. So they appear to have moved away from Biggleswade. There's no indication on the marriage entry that Cooper was from any parish other than Biggleswade (but pre 1754 marriages often/usually didn't include any information other than the names of the two parties and the date). Biggleswade parish register appears to have a number of years missing/deficient from 1733-6, so there may have been other children born in Biggleswade

There's plenty of time for them to have moved up the Great North Road from Biggleswade to Stilton and then to have started baptising children there from 1737.

Hunts Marriage Index has marriages at Stilton of Cooper THORNHILL to Orme BAYLEY in 1754 and of Mary THORNHILL to Allen HOPKINS of Cambridge in 1759

Thornhill burials (not deaths) in Stilton:
26 Nov 1739 Joseph
13 July 1752 Mary
4 March 1759 Cooper

I think the Stilton Cooper Thornhill is probably the one who married in Biggleswade, unless you can demonstrate that he actually married in Leake in 1730. It's not so much that you need to find another Mary Thornhill other than the Biggleswade one, as you need to find another Cooper Thornhill - and they were thin on the ground!

David
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Beds:   Cople: Luke/Spencer
            Everton: Hale
            Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey/Rook
            Potton:  Merrill
            Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey/Rook
            Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt
Hunts:   Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock
            Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn         
Cambs: Bourn: Bowd
            Eltisley: Medlock
            Graveley: Ford/Revell

Offline Kirwan

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Re: Help solve the Leicestershire Stilton Cheese mystery
« Reply #12 on: Sunday 21 December 08 12:14 GMT (UK) »
Thanks David for this. 

You appear to have re-opened Trish's helpful Biggleswade connection in a  positive direction.

Let's face it the name Cooper Thornhill (sometimes written Cowper Thornhill) isn't exactly common.

'Cowper' did a famous ride on pril 29th 1745.  He wagered for 500 guineas that he could ride from Stilton to London and back and then again to finish in London in fifteen hours.  He was allowed fifteen hours to do the 213 miles and people lined the road to see him do it.  He did it in twelve hours and seventeen minutes.  There's a woodcut on it on the web as well as lots of coverage.

The birth and death of Cooper Thornhill junior in Biggleswade helps explain why he doesn't appear later on in Stilton.

So in summary what we have so far from the combined efforts of everyone (thanks Trish, Rog and David)

Cooper Thornhill was born in Leake 1705  (now called Old Leake) near Boston in Lincolnshire
Baptised on 16th April 1710.  His parents were Joseph and Frances Thornhill.
Buried 4 March 1759 Aged 54. (date of burial and age given on gravestone)

Mary CHRISTMAS Baptised 30 Dec 1703, Biggleswade, Bedford.  Parents Robert and Elizabeth
Buried 13 July 1752 Mary Aged 49 (date of burial and age given on gravestone)

Marriage;  Mary Chrismas to Cooper Thornhil, 11 Feb. 1731, Bigglewade

Cooper  c. 15 Oct. 1731 Biggleswade.  Buried Biggleswade 17 March 1732
Ann       c.  4 Feb. 1733 Biggleswade.
Frances baptised in Stilton 25 December 1737.  (Died before her father)
Joseph baptised 5 April 1739 Stilton, buried 26 Nov 1739 Stilton
Mary married Allen Hopkins of Cambridge in 1759
Elizabeth
Susanna.

Cooper Thornhill marries Orme Bayley in May 25th in 1754 in Stilton by Rev Phelips.

The marriage of Mary Thornhill to Allen Hopkins in 1759 may pose a slight challenge, when was she born?  Frances was born December 1737 so conceived March 1737. 
Joseph born April 1739 so conceived July 1738.
So no time between Frances and Joseph to have had Mary. 

If Mary was born after immediately Joseph say in 1740 then she would have been just 19 when she married Allen, not impossible.  Could be she was born earlier in Biggleswade in the lost period of the records 1733 - 1736 along with either Elizabeth or Susanna as neither appear in the Stilton registers.

Not sure where we go from here.  But a very hopeful outcome

Any suggestions?

Thanks again to you all.

Kirwan


Offline bedfordshire boy

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Re: Help solve the Leicestershire Stilton Cheese mystery
« Reply #13 on: Sunday 21 December 08 14:28 GMT (UK) »
You're assuming that the baptism date is the same as the birth date, which is rarely the case unless the baby was not expected to live. You could be months adrift, although the norm was within three weeks. A good example is Cooper himself who appears to have been 5 years old when baptised.

The only way of checking is to look at Stilton parish register for baptisms. Unfortunately these are not on the IGI or BVRI, but a transcription is available on fiche from Hunts FHS. (But you appear to have looked at the register, so possibly some at least of the children were born in Biggleswade)

What is puzzling is that there's no trace of the other children - either marriages or burials. Stilton is only a couple of miles from the boundary with Northants so they might have gone there, but brides usually married in their home parish.,

Orme Thornil was buried at Chesterton on 20 March 1766

Huntingdon Records Office online catalogue has the following from Stilton parish records "Bond by Ann Moore, widow of Whittlesey, Isle of Ely, and Thomas Charles Cadwallader Moore, clerk of Peterborough, to pay the sum of £40 received by the late father of Ann Moore, Cooper Thornhill, from some of the Cotton family for the benefit of the poor of Stilton, to the Churchwardens and Overseers of Stilton. dated 31 Jan 1783"

I can't find a marriage of Ann Thornhill to a Mr Moore however.

What I don't understand are the references on the net of Cooper owning the Bell in 1730, which doesn't quite tie in with his marriage and the baptisms of his first two children, at least, being in Biggleswade.

As Cooper seems to have been relatively wealthy he probably made a will. Have you checked with Huntingdon Records Office to see if they hold a probate copy? later In fact it's held at the National Archives - http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/browse-refine.asp?CatID=6&searchType=browserefine&pagenumber=1&query=*&queryType=1   You can download it for £3-50

David
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Beds:   Cople: Luke/Spencer
            Everton: Hale
            Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey/Rook
            Potton:  Merrill
            Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey/Rook
            Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt
Hunts:   Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock
            Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn         
Cambs: Bourn: Bowd
            Eltisley: Medlock
            Graveley: Ford/Revell

Offline Kirwan

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Re: Help solve the Leicestershire Stilton Cheese mystery
« Reply #14 on: Sunday 21 December 08 21:06 GMT (UK) »
Thanks David, you're a star!

I bought the will from the achives.  Cooper knew when he was dying when he wrote it.  Basically Cooper lets his wife use everything till her death.  He divides his money between his four daughters, Ann, Mary, Elizabeth and Susanna (I suspect the order of their birth).  He asks Ann and Mary to administer everything and he asks two guardians Thomas Moore the younger of Whittlesea and William Child of Yaxby to be the guardians of Elizabeth and Susanna who are in their minority.

This I reckon means that Mary was born in Biggleswade perhaps round about 1735 and that Elizabeth and Susanna were born after Joseph  from 1740 onwards but with enough time after for Elizabeth and Susanna still to be in their minorities.

I accept the point about delays between births and marriages.  I haven't been able to look up the records in Huntingdon, not sure where these are available.

Looks like Anne Thornhill married the Mr Thomas Moore of Whittlesey mentioned in the will, and the bond seems to prove it.

The claim that Cooper owned the Bell in 1730 looks more doubtful.  A guy from there rang me recently also to cast doubt on the claim, so I must get in touch with him again.

Thanks - feel like progress is being made.

Kirwan

Offline Framesmiths1816

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Re: Help solve the Leicestershire Stilton Cheese mystery
« Reply #15 on: Thursday 08 January 09 20:20 GMT (UK) »
Seekers of the truth to the origins of Stilton Cheese......

There is some evidence to support to idea that Stilton Cheese and the recipe did originate in Stilton.  John Warner of Rotherhithe (Horticulturalist) born 1673 wrote a series of letters to his friend Richard Bradley during his travels. One of these letters contained his description of Stilton Cheese made and sold by the Land Lord of the Bell Inn. Bradley first published this recipe to make Stilton in A General Treatise of Husbandry and Gardening (volume I, 1726, p. 118) (ref' to circa 1721) It is thought that as the popularity of the original cheese and it reputation grew, demand out stripped supply and subsequently cheese made in other places like Norfolk and Leicestershire were sold to meet this demand. However Bradley later goes on to lament this fact and expresses his opinion that the bulk manufactured Stilton Cheese was inferior in quality to the original Stilton made cheese. His blames his own publication in part for this decline in quality.

Food for thought

ATB - FS

Warner, Owen, Putt, Mynett, Wickwar, Norman, Wheeler, Gray, Cooke, Dewick, Holmes, Lawson, Granger, Queenan, Weston, Wesson, Brewin, Cartwright, Heathcote, Heathcoat, Felkin, Morley, Hallam, Wootton, Adkin, Shepshed, Loughborough, Leicester, Philadelphia, Ontario, Nottingham,

Offline Kirwan

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Re: Help solve the Leicestershire Stilton Cheese mystery
« Reply #16 on: Thursday 08 January 09 22:47 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for this.  I'd be very interested to know the reference to the letter in which John Warner of Rotherhithe gave the recipe for Stilton to Bradley.

As you say the info is in Bradley's A General Treatise of Husbandry and Gardening (volume I, 1726)

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Kuk1AAAAMAAJ

On pages 115-116 Warner writes to Bradley with a recipe for bacon.  There follows on pages 117-119 the letter written and signed by Bradley on Stilton (doesn't say to whom it is addressed) in which he mentions getting the recipe from someone else

 "to follow the Receipt I send you, which was communicated to me from another Correspondent, who signs himfelf A. B"

Where AB comes from isn't known but Bradley says on page 117

"I have eaten Stilton cheese made by a receipt at a place near nottingham"

The largest producer of Stilton Cheese made today is Long Clawson in the Vale of Belvoir just over 5 miles from Melton Mowbray and only 15 miles from Nottingham.  The Cropwell Bishop dairy is about 6 miles from Nottingham.

He says on page 119 regarding the Bell Inn, "the man of that house keeping strictly to the old receipt" but there is no evidence in Stilton that the Bell ever made its own cheese.

As you say in Bradley's Country Housewife and Lady's Director he decries the quality of the Stilton then available but praises the Bell Inn's cheese.  Curious that  Lord Harley wrote in 1725 that he had 'tasted and disliked the cheese sold at the Bell Inn in Stilton.'

References by Nichols (1793) etc suggest that Leicestershire Cheese makers developed the forerunner of Stilton and sold it to the town rather than the town's people sought additional supplies in neighboroughing counties.

I need to do more research,

thanks again much appreciated

Kirwan

Offline Framesmiths1816

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Re: Help solve the Leicestershire Stilton Cheese mystery
« Reply #17 on: Friday 09 January 09 11:11 GMT (UK) »
Dear Kirwan,

Below is the extra/summary I have with other references as well

"STILTON CHEESE: Bradley first published his recipe to make Stilton in A
General Treatise of Husbandry and Gardening (volume I, 1726, p. 118), i.e.
c. 1721-2. He explained that Stilton was in Lincolnshire on the coach road
to Lincoln from London and that he had received the recipe from the Sign of
the Bell, 'the Man of that House keeping strictly to the old Receipt, while
others thereabouts seem to leave out a great part of the Cream, which is the
chief Ingredient. The recipe ran as follows: 'Take ten Gallons of Morning
Milk, and five Gallons of sweet Cream, and beat them together; then put in
as much boiling Spring-water, as will make it warmer than Milk from the Cow;
when this is done, put in Runnet made strong with large Mace, and when it is
come (or the Milk is set in Curd) break it as small as you would do for
Cheese-Cakes; and after that salt it, and put it into the Fatt, and press it
for two Hours.

Then boil the Whey, and when you have taken off the Curds, put the cheese
into the Whey, and let it stand half an Hour; then put it in the Press, and
when you take it out, bind it up for the first Fortnight in Linen Rollers,
and turn it upon Boards for the first Month twice a Day.'
The same recipe was reprinted when A General Treatise of Husbandry and
Gardening appeared later as a book, in three volumes (see volume I, 1726, p.
118). It was again reprinted, with due attribution, in John Laurence's A new
system of agriculture (1726). Laurence, who shared Bradley's publisher
Thomas Woodward, could not refrain from remarking (quite correctly) that
Stilton was not in Lincolnshire, 'but a great way off in Huntingdonshire'.
Bradley later made some additions to the recipe in The Gentleman and Farmer'
s Guide (1729), pp. 141-4. He explained that the mace needed to be boiled
with the rennet liquor rather than infused, suggested moistening the cheese
with sack, and stated that the perfect Stilton should be about 7 inches in
diameter, 8 inches in height and 18 pounds in weight. (Richard Bradley,
1736)"

I believe the location of the letter(s) to be in the Archives of the Royal Horticultural Society in Wisley.

As far as I am aware most of the people claiming to be originators Stilton Cheese do so at least 70 years after Bradley and of course they have a commercial interest in doing so.

Your 'Lord Harley' quote supports Bradleys claim that the outsourced cheese was inferior to the local. As far as I am aware, the Land Lord of the Bell did not produce large quantities for general sale but only for his customers and those who gave him small orders. I believe this happened once or twice a year only and may have been influenced in part by the season/recipe itself and that this informations dates from the 1690's. (I cannot currently locate the source of this information. However I found it in something I read about 3 months ago. When I find it I will post in this thread.).

The statement that "but there is no evidence in Stilton that the Bell ever made its own cheese" does seem to be contradicted by what I have read. I personally believe in the addage "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".  All processed foods started somewhere as a very small scale cottage/farm industry most likely for home consumption. I cannot believe that the dairy farmers (who may also have been innkeepers) of Stilton were the only people in the country not to extend the use of their milk by practicing the ancient art of Cheese & Butter making. That would indeed be a statistical anomaly worthy of investigation in its own right. Was cheese made in Stilton, 'Stilton Cheese' as we know it today? I doubt it, not in the 16th/17th centuries. I think one of the original ingredients was Mace/Nutmeg, an incredibly expensive spice that probably couldn't have been added until it became affordable. Was cheese made in Stilton? Almost certainly on a small scale.

Of course the above just my opinion, which is as valid as the next persons and is not meant to cause an argument, so please don't read any of this as a challenge, its just another point of view, albeit different to the traditionally accepted one.

The one thing I  do take exception to in todays world is the EU legislation that now makes it illegal for a person in Stilton to make cheese and call it Stilton Cheese. How mad is that? Long may, the cheese makers of Stilton continue to produce their highly valued cheese in secret and unnoticed by the rest of the world!!

ATB - FS

PS - The cheese room at the Bell was demolished in the early 1980's when the Bell underwent extensive modernization after standing derelict for a long time. It is debateable that the room was not big enough to make much cheese it. It was of some considerable age and was one of the few parts of the Bell  not to be rebuilt exaclty as it was using the all the original materials. It had a separate window and door that fronted onto North Street (the old A1/great North Road) and was, by tradition, the place where, in later years, Stilton Cheese was sold from to the passing public.

Added : Another quoted source : Bradley's Monthly Writings of 1721-2 contains references to the Letters of John Warner. This was a monthly Jornal/Magazine that started in 1721 and ceased in 1722 See http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/3215270
Warner, Owen, Putt, Mynett, Wickwar, Norman, Wheeler, Gray, Cooke, Dewick, Holmes, Lawson, Granger, Queenan, Weston, Wesson, Brewin, Cartwright, Heathcote, Heathcoat, Felkin, Morley, Hallam, Wootton, Adkin, Shepshed, Loughborough, Leicester, Philadelphia, Ontario, Nottingham,