1911 Census

[RJ_Paton]

I think earlier records are a bigger priority myself, not least of which being dissenter births and marriages, and kirk session material.

To a certain extent I would agree with you since , although that is from a purely selfish point of view as I have numerous connections to several of the Dissenting groups I would also like to see RC material being made available for the same reasons.

My bigger concern is actually on pricing. FindmyPast and ScotlandsPeople are both owned by brightsolid. There have been arguments about the need for 1911 England and Wales to be pricier (over £3 each per image)

At least in England with previous releases there was some competition which helped to keep prices lower but now that brightsolid have been given a monopoly over the 1911 census they have been given a licence to print money. Although in Scotland the pricing structure of SP is , I believe quite reasonable at the moment the monopoly by SP does cause other problems mainly due to their lack of any real public relations.

[chrispaton]

To a certain extent I would agree with you since, although that is from a purely selfish point of view as I have numerous connections to several of the Dissenting groups I would also like to see RC material being made available for the same reasons.

SP has some interesting projects on the go just now, and more in the pipeline, which will I think make a lot of people very happy! RC material is one of them.

Chris

[andycand]

At least in England with previous releases there was some competition which helped to keep prices lower but now that brightsolid have been given a monopoly over the 1911 census they have been given a licence to print money

When the 1901 England & Wales census was first released there was only one site and it cost 5 GDP for an image. It was quite some time before it became cheaper and even today, Findmypast does not have the complete census, there are still some counties to go.

Andy

[chrispaton]

The remaining English counties are to be released by FindMyPast by the summer, along with the Welsh, Manx, Channel Island and merchant ships. Some Yorkshire records are also being conserved prior to digitisation.

There will also be increased search functionality on the site, once the initial surge of interest has died down a bit - for example the use of wildcards.

Redacted information - on infirmity and on children of women prisoners - will be available on the site from January 2012, though I don't know if this means having to pay to see them again!

Chris

[andycand]

Findmypast does not have the complete census, there are still some counties to go.

The remaining English counties are to be released by FindMyPast by the summer, along with the Welsh, Manx, Channel Island and merchant ships. Some Yorkshire records are also being conserved prior to digitisation.

There will also be increased search functionality on the site, once the initial surge of interest has died down a bit - for example the use of wildcards

I was referring to the 1901 census which is still incomplete on FindMyPast, the way its going we might have access to all the 1911 before the 1901.

Andy

[Guy Etchells]

snip

My bigger concern is actually on pricing. FindmyPast and ScotlandsPeople are both owned by brightsolid. There have been arguments about the need for 1911 England and Wales to be pricier (over £3 each per image) due to the fast turnaround following Guy's successful challenge, but there will be hell to pay if they use this as a precedent for the release of the Scottish 1911 census!

Chris

I have no problem with the pricing; we live in a free economy where the supplier has a right to decide what price to sell his/her goods.

People seem to have forgotten that the 1911 census, as with all other released census, may be viewed free of charge at the National Archives.

If a company wishes to spend money on providing a service (in this case an on-line database) they have a right to re-coup their expenses and to make a profit on the work they have put in.

Researchers have a choice, travel to the National Archives and view the records free of charge or remain at home (thereby saving on travel etc.) and pay to view online.

As long as there is an option I find it acceptable.
Cheers
Guy

[chrispaton]

Hi Guy,

I agree, though I suspect if you live in Shetland you might have a slightly different perspective on that to someone living in Kew!

That wasn't the point I was making though. My concern is the idea that the price for the 1911 census for England and Wales may be used as a precedent for the 1911 Scottish census. I understand the need for FindMyPast to charge a higher rate for what was a fast turnaround - whether that rate is too high is really up to the consumer to decide. But those factors will presumably not apply to the 1911 Scottish census, and Scotland's People has already made all the other censuses available at a price of £1.20 online. Granted the 1911 census is different, as the original schedules are on display, though I had expected something similar to the Irish 1911 census to be revealed when England and Wales went online i.e. all the additional pages also, so was surpised when it really was just one page that you got for the price. And whilst the unredacted parts will be made available in Jan 2012, I'm not sure yet whether they will be freely available to those who have already paid to see the census, or whether they might have to pay again.

As with the English and Welsh census, it will ultimately be to those needing to use the service whether they are willing to pay the price charged for Scottish entries, whatever rate that may be set at. It would be a pity in my view, if British vendors started to put prices up at the very point when Irish vendors are finally beginning to bring their prices down (and with the 1911 census, offer it for free). But you're right, it is a market economy, and ultimately for people to decide if they wish to use it. As with England, there will be an alternative option to view 1911 in Edinburgh at the SP Centre - not quite free, but for a tenner a day for unlimited access to all their records, not bad either!

Chris

[Necromancer]

Researchers have a choice, travel to the National Archives and view the records free of charge or remain at home (thereby saving on travel etc.) and pay to view online.

True, there is a choice - but its apples and oranges aint it !

Also dont have a problem with companies making a profit - and while people are prepared to pay the advertised rate, the marketplace will effectively make it the 'going rate'.

 

[Guy Etchells]

Perhaps I should correct some of the inaccuracies in this thread, sorry for the length.


First when the 1911 census was taken Sunday/Monday April 2nd/3rd 1911
there was no promise that the census would remain closed for 100 years.

It was not until 1966 and the Lord Chancellor's Instrument No. 12 of
1966 which established the 100-year embargo rule that such records were closed for 100 years.

Prior to that, the delay in making records public had been much
shorter. For example, the 1841 and 1851 records for England and Wales
were both released in 1912.
Scottish records were also held for less than 100 years. The 1891 Scottish returns, for instance, were made public after a delay of only 64 years.
Given that the release of returns after 50 to 80 years was the practice in the first half of the last century, and that no confidentiality time period was given on the 1911 census plus the Lord Chancellor's Instrument No. 12 of 1966 was 55 years away at that point.
I would be very surprised if anyone who participated in that census
really believed that their return would be held for exactly 100 years
and not a day less.
Most, if not all who thought about the subject would assume that the 1911 census would like many of the previous census be released to public scrutiny and released within their lifetime as that was the precedent already set.

Section 5(1) of the Public Records Act 1958 provides for the general release of records after 50 years, that was reduced to 30 years in 1967 and finally removed (except for exempted records) in 2000.

The 1920 Census Act as amended (the Act that controls all England & Wales census taken after 1920) blocks all access to census data forever, note forever not just for one hundred years.

The reason the Scottish 1911 census cannot be released is due to the
exemptions of information from the census under the Freedom of
Information (Scotland) Act 2002 (FoISA).

Section 38, Personal information This section makes all census
information exempt from the FoISA

The blanket redaction of the “infirmities” column is unlawful and in direct conflict with the Freedom of Information ruling in my favour.
This stated
“The Commissioner concludes by emphasising that each request for the 1911 census information must be treated separately on its merits. The National Archives will need to consider the substance of the information which has been requested in each case, will need to review what is stated on the face of the relevant census schedule and may need to make further enquiries.”
To use a blanket redaction is to fraudulently imply that further information may be obtained at a later date.
Cheers
Guy