Stuck on my Irish ancestors. Help needed Please

[Rabbit B]

Hi rabbit b (and Shane),

M701831 is just an LDS batch number (i.e. presumably for data entry in batches).

More relevant is the source call number - 0989748.

If you click on this it will take you to the LDS Family History Library catalogue.
Specifically to Film #989748 - which has parochial registers of two Roman Catholic churches.
Items 4-6 on the film are the parochial registers of Roscommon and Kilteeven, 1820-1881.

If you click on this entry, it takes you to a more detailed entry which explains that it is a microfilm of original manuscripts and that some writing is faded and illegible.

Click on film notes and this explains that this part of the film contains Marriages, 1820-1864; baptisms, 1837-1881.

So ... you could probably order Film #989748 into you nearest LDS Family History centre.

But whether you would get any more information from the original entry is another matter altogether ...

Cheers,

JAP
PS: Roscommon and Galway are adjacent counties.
Here is a link to a map of Roman Catholic parishes in Roscommon:
http://www.strandnet.com/creggs/rosmap.htm

hi JAP,

thanks for your detailed explanation of all this. strangely i had discounted this number completely, so i have been to the igi, clicked on that  number and been unable to access anything other than the church which i have already got, and the info you have given me, i got all excited and thought that i could view it on line..

yes the registers are on film, i will have to find out where i can view them.

you will not believe that in all the years i have been using the igi i did not know this, i have just found out that it pays to read the instructions.   

what a dill, i am amazed i have got back to 1780-1765 on most of the lines, so i am not that daft really just not thinking straight at the moment.

thanks so much for your info, when i can drive again i shall hotfoot to the nearest centre having ordered the film first of course.

rabbit b 

PS that map is most useful thanks. galway and rosscommon are not far from each other at all are they.

[Rabbit B]

http://ifhf.brsgenealogy.com/search.php you may find this site useful but they do charge €5.00 per search

thanks Indaloman,

for this website, i rather think it is the one that Shane gave me but thanks anyway. i have now saved them both.

rabbit b 

[shanew147]

there seems to be a problem with the National Library website at the moment - it worked when I looked for the address.

I'm sure they're working on it as we speak...

the link is to a page which has lists of the parish records available.
 
there's good Roscommon records on : http://www.leitrim-roscommon.com/index.shtml ...


Shane

those are LDS reference numbers, from what I understand It is possible in some locations to order films based on these for viewing at an LDS centre - not a process I am familiar with as I live in Dublin, so its all local to me!

there's a list of the RC Parish registers held by the National Library on microfilm at this list : http://www.nli.ie/en/parish-register.aspx

Shane

hi Shane,

so kind of you to take so much trouble, but i cannot get that link to work at all. i also copied and googled,  it came up with three almost identical sites, and none of them worked.  i wonder if they are working on the site.  or is it me

thanks for that though, it is very much appreciated.

rabbit b 

[Rabbit B]

hi Shane,

that is most kind of you to tell me that, i am so sure that you are right.  i will make a note of it for later. they are bound to finish at some time.

am copying all your correspondence  to a word doc so if i lose the link i have got it.

now i am looking for the birth of their daughter Ellen born 1869-70.  she said that she was 18 on her marriage certificate, yet the info on her 1911 census return makes her 20 she was in liverpool in 1901 when dad was born and her dad patrick was living there as a lodger. widower.

i cannot find a trace of her birth, my friend in liverpool says that Gran was born there, possibly, but she had a strong Irish accent.  the family always said born in ireland co galway.  that is as much as i know.

any help here would be great, thanks Shane. we had a scavenger hunt and couldn't find her, but a fresh pair of eyes might do it.

rabbit b 

[JAP]

Hello again rabbit b,

I have just read through your scavenger hunt.

Have you had the 1872 birth of Ellen BYRNE checked out?
Ellen BYRNE, birth, Liverpool, March quarter 1872, Volume 8b, Page 172

You seem to have had many earlier births checked but not this one.

It doesn't match with ages given in some censuses - but it does seem that Patrick & Margaret's arithmetic was a bit astray when it came to working out the ages of their children!

However the March quarter 1872 birth fits nicely with a couple of other things:
a) Ellen's non-appearance on the 1871 census (particularly important)
b) Ellen's age of 18 recorded at her marriage in 1889
c) Ellen's age of 20 recorded in the 1901 census

If you haven't already done so, it would seem to be a good idea to have the 1872 birth looked at.

Good luck,

JAP

[JAP]

I will try to make a bit of a summary with comments.

PART 1

Ca 1837
Patrick BYRNE/BURNS born somewhere in Ireland
Margaret CARR born somewhere in Ireland
Co Galway and Co Wexford have been mentioned in family folklore.

Date ??
Family folklore has it that Patrick worked as head groom for Lord Londonderry.
Lord Londonderry's main estate was near Newtownards in Co Down.
Lord Londonderry may, of course, have also had properties elsewhere in Ireland but I haven't been able to find any information about this.

1859
A Patricium BYRNN married a Margaritam CARR, 26 Jan 1859, Roman Catholic, Roscommon and Kilteevan, Co Roscommon, Ireland
It would be interesting to order in the relevant film to an LDS Family History centre (though note that it is a film of a manuscript which is said to be faded and difficult to read).  There might be no further information in the entry but it is always possible that it might give the groom's occupation and might say if one or other of the parties came from another parish.

1863
Possible birth of William
BYRNE William, birth, Liverpool, Jun quarter 1863, Vol 8b, Page 129

1868
Possible birth of Mary
BYRNE Mary, birth, Liverpool, Jun quarter 1868, Vol 8b, Page 62

1871 census
RG10/3764/146/42
13 Snowdon St, Liverpool
BURNS household
Patrick, Head, 34, Labourer in Corn Warehouse, born Ireland
Margaret, Wife, 35, born Ireland
William, Son, 8, born Lancashire Liverpool
Mary, Daughter, 2, born Lancashire Liverpool
Note that there is no Ellen.  This implies that she was born after the date of the 1871 census which was 2 Apr 1871.

1872
Possible birth of Ellen
BYRNE Ellen, birth, Liverpool, March quarter 1872, Vol 8b, Page 172

1881 census
RG11/3603/69/66-67
36 Barmouth St, Liverpool
BYRNS household
Patrick, Head, 43, Dock Laborer, born Ireland
Margaret, Wife, 44, Dressmaker, born Ireland
William, Brother, 23, Unmarried, Brass Finisher, born Lancashire Liverpool
Mary, Daughter, 16, Unmarried, Shirt Maker, born Lancashire Liverpool
Ellen, Daughter, 12, Shirt Maker, born Lancashire Liverpool
Note: Ages for Patrick & Margaret are fine.  Is William really Patrick's brother or is this his son William who was 8 in 1871 so should be 18 in 1881?  Mary's age was 2 in 1871 but now, in 1881, she is suddenly 16 instead of 12 - surely an error.  Ellen was not present in 1871; if age of 12 is correct, she should have been - it is probably yet another error.

To be continued in PART 2

[JAP]

PART 2

1889
Ellen BURNS marries, Jun quarter 1889, Liverpool, Vol 8b, Page 164.
James HOYLE is on the same page.

1891 census
RG12/2973/60/48
53 Aber St, Bootle
HOYLE household
James, Head, 22, Sailor(?), born Lancashire Liverpool
Ellen, Wife, 20, born Lancashire Liverpool
John, Son, 1, born Lancashire Liverpool
Patrick BURNS, Lodger, Widower, 54, Dock Labourer, born Lancashire Bootle
Mary MCDONALD, Visitor, Married, 22, born Ireland
Patrick MCDONALD, Son deleted and replaced by Visitor, 6 months, born Lancashire Bootle
Note: Patrick BURNS's birthplace is surely just an error.  One has to suspect that Mary is Ellen's sister and that the Ireland birthplace for her is also an error.  The only 1890 Patrick M*CDONALD birth is Patrick Ranald in Toxteth Park which seems unlikely.  However there are several 1890 births for a Patrick BURNS and for a Patrick BYRNE including a Patrick BURNS in West Derby (which includes Bootle) in Dec quarter 1890, Vol 8b, P253. A Patrick BURNS, age 0, died in West Derby, June quarter 1891.

1901 census
RG13/3461/117/49
130 Irlam Rd, Bootle
HOYLE household
James, Head, 30, Dock Labourer, Worker, born Liverpool Lancashire
Ellen, Wife, 32, Tobacconist Shop Keeper own account at home, born Liverpool Lancashire
John, Son, 11, born Bootle Lancashire
James, Son, 9, born Bootle Lancashire
Hewey, Son, 7, born Bootle Lancashire
Ellen, Daughter, 5, born Bootle Lancashire
William, Son, 11 months, born Bootle Lancashire
Patrick BYRNE, Father-in-law, 64, Dock Labourer, Worker, born Ireland
Annie DAVIES, Servant, Unmarried, 21, General Domestic Servant, Worker, born Wales
Note: Patrick's surname has been transcribed as BYRON though it's obviously BYRNE.  Annie's name has been transcribed as DAVELLA though it's obviously DAVIES.

JAP

[Rabbit B]

Hello again rabbit b,

I have just read through your scavenger hunt.

Have you had the 1872 birth of Ellen BYRNE checked out?
Ellen BYRNE, birth, Liverpool, March quarter 1872, Volume 8b, Page 172

You seem to have had many earlier births checked but not this one.

It doesn't match with ages given in some censuses - but it does seem that Patrick & Margaret's arithmetic was a bit astray when it came to working out the ages of their children!

However the March quarter 1872 birth fits nicely with a couple of other things:
a) Ellen's non-appearance on the 1871 census (particularly important)
b) Ellen's age of 18 recorded at her marriage in 1889
c) Ellen's age of 20 recorded in the 1901 census

If you haven't already done so, it would seem to be a good idea to have the 1872 birth looked at.

Good luck,

JAP

hi jap

i have just typed a long answer to you and lost the lot, so sorry, and thanks so much for all this.
i am babysitting this morning but will look more closely at all this info this evening. grateful thanks for all your time and trouble

see you later

rabbit b

[Rabbit B]

hi JAP,

sorry i had to rush off like that this morning.

i am fascinated by the way you have pulled this all together, apart from 1871 and Ellen's birth, i had almost got there.

i will certainly check out that birth, it doesn't fit with the 1911 census, but what does. Ellen was 40 then and James 42 which gives you different dates again.  they had been married 22 years which fits with 1889 OK. but again gives me a different birth date for Ellen

here is another interesting piece of useless info, my dads second name must have been a baptismal name, it is not on his birth certificate, and although his mother maiden name is spelt Burns, it looks as if the u is 1/2 a y and the s could be an e. but it is clear in the register. having said that, they have my maiden name wrong in the records and ancestry.co.uk, and despite my protests will not change it,   my certificates are correct though, so errors do happen like this,

dad's sister's birth certificate is Byrne, no mistake there. there were twelve children. it will break the bank to get all of them and check it.

i have always been told it was Byrne and did not know that was how it was spelt until i watched Ballykissangel with the teletext up. i thought it was burns, the way is was pronounced. 

now could Ellen have had another name by which she was called.  my mother never used her real name only ever her nickname on everthing. could that be a reason i haven't found her yet.

so how can one prove which is right.  any suggestions would be gratefully received.  it is so nice of you to have gone to all this trouble for me.

i really do appreciate it you know.
thank you so much

rabbit b