Author Topic: Thomas Fitzsimmons 1891/1901 Census  (Read 11584 times)

Offline ibi

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 374
    • View Profile
Re: Thomas Fitzsimmons 1891/1901 Census
« Reply #9 on: Friday 13 February 09 13:03 GMT (UK) »
Hi Scully

I need to review all the stuff that I looked at late last / early this morning as there was also this Thomas / Robert switch which makes me twitchy .........

ibi

Offline scully

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 461
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Thomas Fitzsimmons 1891/1901 Census
« Reply #10 on: Friday 13 February 09 16:18 GMT (UK) »
Hi ibi,
Thanks for taking up your time to check.

Scully

Offline ibi

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 374
    • View Profile
Re: Thomas Fitzsimmons 1891/1901 Census
« Reply #11 on: Friday 13 February 09 17:56 GMT (UK) »
Hi ibi,
Thanks for taking up your time to check.

Scully


Hi Scully

Nae prob!

I like puzzles !!


In my general experience the range of research possibilities is covered by the extremes ......

EXTREME 1 : Every record fits together with few if any contradictions, errors or omissions, and, where there are any such, they are very easily resolved and explained.

EXTREME 2 : There are multiple contradictions, errors or ommissions, sometimes understandable, but sometimes not; in the ultimate, without substantial 'elimination' research on possible, parallel lines, connected or otherwise, so that it can be the case that it just ain't clear what the real situation was.


In general, in my experience, the balance of research sitautions lies more towards EXTREME1 than EXTREME2 .........


Here, however, for the moment I feel that we're about half way between EXTREME1 than EXTREME2 .........   :'(


Let's review the info, that we have...............


1867 Marriage Ayr

Thomas FITZSIMMONS, 22
   Engine Driver
   [Note: 'Engine Driver' could apply not only to a railway locomotive driver, but also to the 'driver', i.e. operator, of a stationary steam engine.]
      Parents Thomas FITZSIMMONS, Labourer, and Helen FITZSIMMONS MS DIVINE
Mary SCULLION, 19
   Sewer
      Parents Thomas SCULLION, Carter, and Elizabeth SCULLION MS BROWN


1870 Birth Ayr

Thomas FITZSIMMONS
  Kilmarnock Street, St Quivox

Parents: Thomas FITZSIMMONS, Engine Driver and
              Mary FITZSIMMONS  MS  SCULLION
              married 1867 Sept 9th St Quivox


1874 Death Ayr

This is where it starts to get problematic !

Mary FITZSIMMONS, aged 26, but note that this matches exactly the 1867 marriage age of 19 .........
Married to Robert FITZSIMMONS, Pit Engine Man
but 'Pit Engine Man' is not in conflict with the earlier 'Engine Driver'

Parents:  James SCULLION  Pig Dealer  [conflicts with the 1867 marriage record, Thomas]               
and Margaret SCULLION MS BROWN [conflicts with the 1867 marriage record Elizabeth.......]

Informant: Robert FITZSIMMONS

NB 1871 census record showing James SCULLION as 'Swine Dealer'


1897 Marriage Thomas FITZSIMMONS / Mary McMILLAN

Just to make life really interesting, as is so often the case in such situations !  :-\, the image is not available on ScotlandsPeople, but your info from the certificate is that the father was a Robert, instead of Thomas but the mother's name matches, - I assume Mary SCULLION, - please confirm.

Likewise, what is shown as the father's occupation?, and is he shown as deceased or not at the time of the 1897 marriage ?


Various Censuses

As previously noted it appears to be possible to track Thomas, b. 1870 thru the various censuses from 1871 to 1901, despite a probable error on the part of his uncle John O'HARA/O'HARRO [1891/1881 variants] as regar the 10 year old Thomas' place of birth........


If the 1897 marriage register entry for Robert is shown as an engine driver or anything closely similar then I'd vote for wee Thomas' father Thomas changing his name to Robert, for whatever reason.

Even so, such a change doesn't leave me feeling comfortable
As a great friend of mine was wont to say, I end up confused, but on a higher level.




changes may follow on review of this post, but I need to get this version on line ...................








Offline scully

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 461
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Thomas Fitzsimmons 1891/1901 Census
« Reply #12 on: Saturday 14 February 09 21:37 GMT (UK) »
Hi ibi,
It do's say his mother was Mary Scullion on his marriage of 1897. His father was not deceased on the marriage and was an Engine Keeper. I have just found Thomas's death in  the Six Kyle Graveyards MI,s book  and checked his death it said his parents were Robert Fitzsimmons and Mary Scullion and his father was an Engineman (Deceased). Also on the same Mi's there is a Ann Fitzsimmons married to John O'Hara which fits in with 1881 Census. So it looks like the names around the the births and marriage may have been a bit mixed up. Don't know if you agree.

Scully


Offline ibi

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 374
    • View Profile
Re: Thomas Fitzsimmons 1891/1901 Census
« Reply #13 on: Sunday 15 February 09 15:54 GMT (UK) »
Hi ibi,
It do's say his mother was Mary Scullion on his marriage of 1897. His father was not deceased on the marriage and was an Engine Keeper. I have just found Thomas's death in  the Six Kyle Graveyards MI,s book  and checked his death it said his parents were Robert Fitzsimmons and Mary Scullion and his father was an Engineman (Deceased).

Which fits !

I've also found the death of Thomas's sister Annie at 9 years old, the information again fitting, but still leaving this double identity Thomas/Robert wide open !

Quote
Also on the same Mi's there is a Ann Fitzsimmons married to John O'Hara which fits in with 1881 Census.

Which fits

Ann O'HARA MS FITZSIMMONS died 1909, Informant Thomas FITZSIMMONS, Nephew, of 16 River Street.  I was in River Street just there on Wednesday for lunch at The Swan, Ayr's oldest restaurant, which Thomas would have known !

Quote
So it looks like the names around the the births and marriage may have been a bit mixed up. Don't know if you agree.

Very probably.

But before reaching a final conclusion I just want to sit back and review all we have to date.

Orraverybest

ibi


Offline ibi

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 374
    • View Profile
Re: Thomas Fitzsimmons 1891/1901 Census
« Reply #14 on: Sunday 15 February 09 17:31 GMT (UK) »
Aye weel, that didnae take long at a'   ;)


Things crystalised quite quickly for me, so to speak..............


I reckon that there was never a Thomas, only ever a Robert.


It's possible to dream up scenarios where Thomas changed his name to Robert; or Thomas died and his widow remarried his brother Robert, of which there is no evidence, but applying Occam's Razor (Gie it a Google if ye arnae familar wi 'Occam') leads me to the following conclusion.


There's an error on the 1867 marriage record resulting in Robert being shown as Thomas.

It's not generally realised that the procedure for the registration of a marriage was quite different.  For a B or D the informant turned up at the office of the registrar, and, in front of the registrar or his assistant, the info was there and then entered in both registers (one was kept locally, the other was sent to Edinburgh the following January). 

The informant then signed or made their mark and that was that !, unless an RCE entry was later required.  Once the register entries had been signed by the registrar, an alteration or addition could only be made via an RCE entry; OK, in the first decade or so, there was some confusion over the procedure, and an addition/alteration will occasionally be seen in the margin of the register entry.


For a marriage, however, the couple obtained a "Marriage Schedule' from the registrar, - I've never been clear whether this was filled in in the presence of the registrar to the extent possible, or only later in front of the officiating minister.

Whatever, after the ceremony, somebody, often the best man trotted along to the registrar's office and passed over the completed schedule signed by the couple, the witnesses, and the minister.

The registrar then copied all the info from this Marriage Schedule (engrossed is the guid auld Scots word) into his Register Books of Marriages, and that was that.

Two possibilities for error here, - wrong info during the filling in of the schedule or an error during the transcription.......

These schedules still exist, but only in really exceptional circumstances will GROS grant access, and then, only to the signatures of the couple, which might well not help here if Robert just made his mark !, but maybe just still worth it.


For the 1868 birth of Annie, the informant is the granny Margaret SCULLION, and it shows the father as Robert.


On the 1870 birth register entry for wee Thomas I can well imagine a scenario where the registrar asks Robert "What's the father's name?" but Robert mishears that as "What's your father's name?" and replies accordingly, resulting in the father of wee Thomas being shown as Thomas FITZSIMMONS.  Thomas/Robert  makes his mark in the register.


On both these birth records the date of the marriage is shown as September 1867.


In 1874 Robert loses his wife to Phthisis Pulmonaris, aged 26.  The Widower, Robert FITZSIMMONS signs the register but it is a very halting and unpracticed signature .......


Every relevant record thereafter refers to him as 'Robert'.


Oanybuddy goat a different thesis, but ? ;D


What would help in order to go from strong suggestion to certainty would be an 1871 census entry for the family of Robert, Mary, Ann[ie] and Thomas, but I'm d****d if I can find one even turning numerous sumersaults with wildcards and considering areas other than Ayr ......... 


Similarly, it would help to find birth records for the family of Thomas FITZSIMMONS and Helen FITZSIMMONS MS DIVIN[E], Robert's parents, but could it be relevant that the 1867 marriage of Robert/Thomas FITZSIMMONS and Mary SCULLION was according to the Forms of the Roman Catholic Church ? (just where, I wonder, are the long promised index and images of the Scottish Catholic births, confirmation marriages, death etc.? )


And again, similarly, after 1874 I just cannot find any further record for Robert/Thomas, such as a remarriage (the wains, Annie and Thomas, in any case were obviously looked after by grandparents and other relatives), a death record that fits, or a census record in 1881 or later.

Did Robert/Thomas leave Scotland, going back to Ireland or elsewhere in the UK, or even further abroad, furth of Auld Scotia ? :-\


Pheeeeewwww ................. ;)


See some genealogy puzzles, they wad burst ye!, but, to use guid West of Scotland vernacular  ::)

ibi

Offline scully

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 461
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Thomas Fitzsimmons 1891/1901 Census
« Reply #15 on: Sunday 15 February 09 19:44 GMT (UK) »
Hi ibi,
  I have been trying find the death of Robert/Thomas. It seems he was alive when Thomas was married in 1897 but dead by 1920 when Thomas had died.
But i did find this Death, 5/10/1887 Tarbolton. Thomas Fitzsimmons, Engine Keeper married to Mary Ann Young. Parents- Thomas Fitzsimmons, Lab, and Ellen ------. both (Deceased). very odd when most thing seem to fit except the ages and year. and Mary could have been his second wife .What do you think.
It seem to get more puzzeling.

Scully

Offline ibi

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 374
    • View Profile
Re: Thomas Fitzsimmons 1891/1901 Census
« Reply #16 on: Sunday 15 February 09 20:21 GMT (UK) »
Hi ibi,
  I have been trying find the death of Robert/Thomas. It seems he was alive when Thomas was married in 1897 but dead by 1920 when Thomas had died.
But i did find this Death, 5/10/1887 Tarbolton. Thomas Fitzsimmons, Engine Keeper married to Mary Ann Young. Parents- Thomas Fitzsimmons, Lab, and Ellen ------. both (Deceased). very odd when most thing seem to fit except the ages and year. and Mary could have been his second wife .What do you think.
It seem to get more puzzeling.

Scully

Disnae work. I'm afraid.

This Thomas married Mary Tearnie in 1844 in St Quivox !

ibi

Offline scully

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 461
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Thomas Fitzsimmons 1891/1901 Census
« Reply #17 on: Sunday 15 February 09 20:56 GMT (UK) »
Hi Ibi,
Thanks for the info. I will just have to keep trying.

Scully