Author Topic: Burgess-Spalding - a puzzle/condundrum  (Read 33640 times)

Offline CanadianStoddart

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Re: Burgess-Spalding - a puzzle/condundrum
« Reply #63 on: Tuesday 12 May 09 16:49 BST (UK) »
I'm comparing notes to what I have and may be a little while as I'm also looking after my 2 1/2 year old granddaughter today. Jean Murray Ramage b Jan 22 1832 daughter of James Ramage and Mary Stoddart. Then I have Jame Murray Ramage born 1822 married to James Burgess. I need to look closer to see if the dates could be wrong.
Back later. Thanks Gadget.

Offline Gadget

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Re: Burgess-Spalding - a puzzle/condundrum
« Reply #64 on: Tuesday 12 May 09 16:56 BST (UK) »
and the final link to the Murrays:

Baptism 18 Nov 1798 James Ramage to Thomas Ramage and Jane Murray, Crawfordjohn

No sign of a baptism for a Jane or Jean, although it could have happened and be missing/not recorded.

However, if she married James Burgess in 1843, she would have only been 12. I think the 1828 date for Janet  (giving an age of 15/16) is more likely. Alternatively the date of marriage might be wrong as the eldest child was down as being b. 1848.

Gadget
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Offline CanadianStoddart

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Re: Burgess-Spalding - a puzzle/condundrum
« Reply #65 on: Tuesday 12 May 09 17:14 BST (UK) »
Another close but not definite is that my recorded death date for Jean Murray Ramage b. 1832 is Nov 24 1909. My recorded death date for Jane Murray Ramage b. 1822 is Dec 12 1909.  !!

Offline Gadget

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Re: Burgess-Spalding - a puzzle/condundrum
« Reply #66 on: Tuesday 12 May 09 17:21 BST (UK) »
See my message above where I transcribe  from the cert that Karen has so kindly  found - the Jean one is definitely her.


Just to summarize:


Jane/Jean/Janet Murray Rammage b 1828-1831, Crawfordjohn, Lanarkshire to James Ramage and Mary Stoddart
m. James Burgess b 1819,

Mary Stoddart b. 1802, Wiston and Roberton, Lanarkshire to Philip Stoddart and Janet Padkin
m.
1. James Ramage
2.  John Burgess b. 1816

(John Burgess and James Burgess were brothers; the children of John Burgess and Jean McDowall. John Burgess, snr, was my 3 x grt grandfather, James's brother)

Philip Stoddart b. 1758, Wiston and Roberton to Philip Stoddart and (probably) Janet Weir

Janet Padkin b. 1762, Wiston and Roberton,  to James Padkin


Gadget
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Offline CanadianStoddart

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Re: Burgess-Spalding - a puzzle/condundrum
« Reply #67 on: Tuesday 12 May 09 17:45 BST (UK) »
Wonderful. Thanks so much for all your help.

Margaret

Offline Gadget

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Re: Burgess-Spalding - a puzzle/condundrum
« Reply #68 on: Tuesday 12 May 09 17:54 BST (UK) »
You're welcome - it's amazing how we're all just a series of interconnected trees - the descendants of Mary Stoddart and John Burgess and Jean Ramage and James Burgess are our joint relatives!

I'm still left with trying to find the parents of John Burgess and Jean Spalding though  :'( :'( :'(



Gadget - think I might have a little sulk  ;D ;D ;D
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Offline Northerngirl

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Re: Burgess-Spalding - a puzzle/condundrum
« Reply #69 on: Thursday 21 May 09 13:23 BST (UK) »
Hello

I've been wondering whether or not to add more information to this thread which is very long, informative but very interesting.  The thing about 'brick walls' is that if we keep chipping away at each side we may get it to fall down - so here goes!


My own 'brick wall' is James Murray circa 1811 - 1843 or 1815 - 1843 (depending on which information is being used).   He is my 3x great grand father.  He married Elizabeth Shaw who was the daughter of William and Margaret Shaw (and may have been the niece of your Helen Shaw Scatza).  He by all accounts was a blacksmith.  He died at Green Lane which is just smack in the middle of between several parishes but ultimately at the time  was part of Kelton.  He is buried at Kelton Hill/Rhonehouse cemetery.   

I have tried all sorts of approaches to try and find more information about him.  I have investigated whether the McMichael blacksmith he was working for at the time was a distant relative (I note that some of your initial information mentioned an Agnes McMichael Gadget).  I did find an MI for an ? Agnes McMichael Murray and had intended to persue it.    The name Janet features very heavily in the Shaw family as does Helen by the way.  This of course may be all a coincidence and may also be muddying the waters' a little but chip, chip, chip!!

J.A.
P.S.  What's the betting that if we were men and could compare DNA we'd find a connection between us all?
SCOTLAND
KBC interests - Murray and Shaw: Blacklock and Kirkland.
DMS interests - as KBC.

ENGLAND
Northumberland
Murray: > 1920 in Longbenton/Forest Hall; Howick 1920's
Elliott: North Nbld 1800's
Straughan/Straphen: North Nbld 1800's and 1910's/1920's Craster.
Henderson(nee Elliott)/Brodie Haydon Bridge 1900's
Bell (nee Elliott) Christon Bank/Embleton 1900's

IRELAND
County Mayo
Mills: Erris Head and Gortmellia
Mullarky: as same
Ginnelly: as same

Offline Des362

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Re: Burgess-Spalding - a puzzle/condundrum
« Reply #70 on: Wednesday 22 September 10 22:51 BST (UK) »
Hello,
I have just found this thread on Google and this is my first post, so I hope this works out.  We have been in touch directly in the past and I thank you for your help.  I would like to refer to your first post in this thread.

I too, am still trying to fathom out where John BURGESS and Jean SPALDING came from.  With so many gaps in the local parish records for this area of Scotland, it is an uphill battle.  The 1745 uprising and the problems over Covenanters during this period make records scarce.  With old books like the 'Fasti Ecclesiae Scoticanae' coming online there is some hope that a lead may be found.

I tend to agree with you that there is a very strong likelihood that Jean Spalding is the granddaughter of Rev. Samuel Spalding and Elizabeth Brown, of Dullarg, by his eldest son Samuel, or other unknown son (if any), given that Dullarg is a pretty small community and its association with the Spaldings.  But we still need that missing proof.

It is a pity Alexander Spalding of Holm's daughter, Jean, baptised in 1748 married James Fraser in 1769 in Edinburgh, as she seemed the most likely candidate!

John BURGESS's origin has been much harder to track down.

There is one thing I am curious about and that is why you are unsure of Samuel BURGESS (ca 1779-) being a brother of James (ca 1782-1856) and John (1784-bef 1876). (The latter dates from Canadian Censuses).  James in his letter to his brother John in Canada dated 2 Jan 1835 says "Brother Samuel I understand, happened with sore misfortune, getting his house all burned and a good deal of his furniture,..."  He is mentioned again in the letter from John to James on 28 Jan 1841, and as you pointed out indicating his "bow"(beau?) brother Samuel was most unfortunate (with broken leg) and untrustworthy.  John also indicated his willingness to help Samuel's wife Euphemia.

Regarding the immigration of John Burgess and Jean McDougal and family they left Canada in 1826.  Georgina was the last child born in Scotland, bapt. 10 Mar 1826 in Balmaclellan.

Here is the entry
 
Source Bibliography:DOBSON, DAVID. Directory of Scottish Settlers in North America, 1625-1825. Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co. Volume 2. 1984. 216p.
Page: 18

"Name: John Burgess  Born in Scotland in 1785
Year: 1826
Place: Canada
Family Members: Wife Jean McDowal b. 1792;
Child William b. 1809; Child Gordon b. 1811 Child Jane b. 1814; Child John b.1816; Child James b. 1819; Child Mary b. 1820; Child Thomas b. 1823; Child Georgina b.1826;
 
From Kirkcudbrightshire to Canada in 1826
Source Publication Code: 1640.2
Primary Immigrant: Burgess, John"

Also William Burgess (1789-1823) who was the first to travel to the New World, died in New York on 31 May 1823.

BURGESS, William, d.31 May 1823.  From Kells parish, Kirkcudbrightshire. To New York and d. there.  (DGH 9 July, 1823)          [Dumfries and Galloway Herald and Advertiser]            

A Dictionary of Scottish Emigrants to the USA  Vol 2
Compiled and Edited by Donald Whyte F.H.G., F.S.G., F.S.A.Scot.
Magna Carta Book Company Baltimore, Maryland, USA 1986

I hope this helps.

Des 362






Offline Gadget

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Re: Burgess-Spalding - a puzzle/condundrum
« Reply #71 on: Wednesday 22 September 10 23:10 BST (UK) »
Hi and Welcome


Yes I agree with your info but there's nothing new there.  I have wills, etc from Margaret Spalding  but no mention of Jean. I actually think that Jean was the illegitimate daughter of Samuel, son of Samuel - but no proof and no mention in wills or any other documentation.

I spent some days in Edinburgh a few years ago going through the Sessions Minutes for Kells but found very little except Agnes Duncie being awarded meal just before she and Thomas died and some odds and ends of my other (non-Burgess) lines up there

Very little evidence apart from Thomas being 'of Kirkmahoe' in his Army record.

Gadget

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