Welsh Names

[Chainsaw]

I seem to have some early welsh ancestors.

Help !!!

The problem arises when I try to trace a family line, because there does not seem to be any general consensus upon how to spell the names, so every source spells them differently. Then it seems that many of these data subjects used a variety of names that they would change whenever the mood took them.

Forgive me for saying that it all looks like a terrible mess !

Can anyone suggest a solution that will enable me to make some sense of it all, Please.

[Arranroots]

Errr - "data subjects" - would that be your relatives??

 

It depends how far back you have gone, but variable spelling wasn't just a Welsh issue: until literacy became more widespread there was little in the way of convention about spellings.

To matters worse, you will eventually hit the Welsh patronymic system, where surnames per se disappear and instead you used your father's Christian name as your surname.

Are you stuck on finding your relatives, or is it just the spelling that is causing you problems?

Kind regards, Arranroots 

[Chainsaw]

They MAY be my ancestors, but I need to do further research before I would confirm
this.

I don't doubt that they knew who they were, the problems seem to be with modern
historians who cannot agree how to spell the names. Each reference I see tends to contradict the last.

I have;-

Llewellyn ap Lorwerth Drwyndwn, 1173-1240, son of Iorwerth Drwyndwn ap Owen
Gwinedh, son of Owen Gwynedd ap Griffith, 1137 - 1170, son of Griffith ap Cynan,
1081 - 1137, son of Cynan ap Lago, son of Lago ap Idwal, son of Idwal ap Meryic, son of Meryic ap Idwal Foel, son of Idwal Foel ap Anharawd.

O.K., firstly, are the spellings correct, secondly is it genealogically correct, and third what have I missed.

Thanks in anticipation of all your help,

Chainsaw.

[Gadget]

Hi Chainsaw

They might be in a book of ancient Welsh lineages that I have - I'll check it out tomorrow.


Llewellyn ap Lorwerth Drwyndwn, would probably be Llewellyn ap Iorwerth Drwyndwn

Is this him:

http://www.100welshheroes.com/en/biography/llywelynabiorwerth

There are some likely errors in the others as well but, as Arranroots has said, nothing was formalised so far back.

Many of these lineages would have been learned by heart and then written down much later.

Gadget

[pinot]

Hi Chainsaw,
        As Gadget and Arranroots point out, conventions in spelling are pretty recent (just go back to the old chestnut of W. Shakespeare spelling his own name in umpteen different ways); however, real modern historians tend to agree to stick to consistent spellings, and I am tempted to think that the names you quote are borrowed from much earlier writers who didn't stick to the conventions.
        There are obvious mistakes of transcription, e.g. Lor... for Iorwerth, Lago for Iago, an un-Welsh Llewellyn for Llywelyn, likewise Meryic for the (normal) Anglicised Meyrick and Welsh Meurig. One site from my favourites which contains loads of these old Welsh names in fairly dependable spellings is:
http://fabpedigree.com/  Look for the Principality of Wales in the menu then go to the surnames for hours of fun. You may even find some ancestors there!
          Happy searching, Pinot 


Moderator Comment: URL edited to act as link

[Gadget]

I'd missed the second ll, pinot - too many aps 

If Chainsaw is interested in the ancient Welsh families and lineages, I recall that we had a discussion on this thread:

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,193727.15.html



Gadget

[Chainsaw]

Thanks Pinot and Gadget, the very least I can do is to afford them the courtesy of correctly spelling their names.
This has allowed my software to match and merge a few persons that would have
otherwise remained seperate.

Chainsaw.

[omega 1]

Hi Chainsaw

Only found your thread this morning.

I have a book Wales before 1536~ A Guide~,which may interest you.

The name Gruffudd ap Cynan is metioned in the book, i assume this to be Griffith ap Cynan.

I  too have Ancestors i this book.

I have ordered another book Wales before 1066.Also there is another Wales after 1536.

Omega

[Chainsaw]

O.K.,  ..............

I have several hundred Welsh individuals listed in my files,

What ones did you have in mind ?

Sorry if I'm being a bit wooden, but I'm not too sure how to reply.