Author Topic: 1834 Letter - Joseph CARNE  (Read 7220 times)

Offline Paul Caswell

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1834 Letter - Joseph CARNE
« on: Sunday 01 March 09 17:18 GMT (UK) »
Hi All,

I came across this letter while sorting out some old boxes.

I have no idea where or when I got it. I am sure it is nothing to do with my family.

Here is a transcription. It would be interesting to see if we could work out who the people are.

Please remember that names are often very difficult to transcribe so I may not have them right. The writing is quite clear but not clear enough for me to be totally confident of people and place names.

To: Philip Melvill Esq.
Military Secretary's office
East India House
London

Penzance 11th Feb 1834

My dear Sir,

Caroline paid us a visit yesterday accompanied by W Horner. In the course of conversation after dinner he told me that Mr John Major of Redruth, one of his father's trustees would be glad to communicate with me on the subject of Caroline's settlement. In reply to my question whether he wishes to do this immediately, he replied that he would write to let me know when Mr Major would be prepared to enter on the subject, as he (Mr M) wishes first to go to Ellenglere to see the exact state of the property. I asked whether he or Mr Major had already formed any specific idea on the matter. He said "No".

I did not commit to paper the particulars which we agreed as when I last saw you, I felt I should omit anything, I shall be glad to have your reaction aid me. I think we intended to propose settling £5000 on our part, which should be met with an equal sum, or an equal income, on Mr Harker's that the income of the whole should be the husband's during his life, and Caroline's in care of her surviving heir. That in case of a family, the whole should be settled on them after the mother's death in such proportions as may be ordered by the father's will. But in case of no family, or they shall all die before the mother, her £5000 should be at her own disposal, by will & if she makes no will, to her next of kin. I do not recollect any other conditions. I do not expect that money will be very plentiful, and therefore, as respect the mortgage of Learth, it may be inconvenient to advance £1000 on it. Should this be the case, if Mr H will give us a mortgage of any property of that amount at the same interest, there will perhaps be no objection to take it. Should he propose a bond, although the security might be unquestionable, I think that as trustee, he should not be allowed to take it.

Mr Carne of Falmouth asked me, a few weeks ago, if Penwinnock was for sale, if so, he will be glad of the first offer. I told him that I believe there was no intention to dispose of it at present.

The weather has been so bad that I have not been able to get to St Agnes, but I have written to Clemon that I hope to be in there on Thursday next. There is a matter foremost fallen in hand that Clemon says Mr James James talks of claiming, as he thinks he cannot show a title to it. Madame Carne is still very weak altho' she has been lately free from spasms.

Horace
My dearest yours very truly
Joseph Carne.

P.S. We are happy to find from Caroline that Mme M & the babe are doing very well.


Names highlighted.
Caswell - Durham(Jarrow), Northumberland(Berwick), Dorset(Netherbury)
Drury - Middlesex(Kensington), Shropshire(Oswestry/Selattyn)
Turner - Dorset(Parkstone)
Speight - Essex(Braintree), Kent(Gravesend), Westmorland(Kendal)
Stockley - Dorset(Corfe Castle)
Amey - Suffolk(Haverhill)
Cousins - Norfolk(Ketteringham)
Sears - Bedfordshire(Potton), Cambridgeshire(Gamlingay)
Census information is Crown Copyright

Offline Paul Caswell

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Re: 1834 Letter - Joseph Carne
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 01 March 09 19:06 GMT (UK) »
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=16456

Quote
...
No. 6. — Annual Account of the Proceeds of Goods and Merchandize of The East India Company in Great Britain — continued.
...
Increase of Salary to Mr. Philip Melvill, Assistant to the Secretary for conducting Military Correspondence    ...

I wonder where the military connection comes in.

Paul
Caswell - Durham(Jarrow), Northumberland(Berwick), Dorset(Netherbury)
Drury - Middlesex(Kensington), Shropshire(Oswestry/Selattyn)
Turner - Dorset(Parkstone)
Speight - Essex(Braintree), Kent(Gravesend), Westmorland(Kendal)
Stockley - Dorset(Corfe Castle)
Amey - Suffolk(Haverhill)
Cousins - Norfolk(Ketteringham)
Sears - Bedfordshire(Potton), Cambridgeshire(Gamlingay)
Census information is Crown Copyright

Offline osprey

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Re: 1834 Letter - Joseph Carne
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 01 March 09 19:51 GMT (UK) »
there's a Joseph Carne in Madron in 1851, aged 68 and a banker HO107/1918 folio 644 pg 43. He has a daughter Caroline born Phillack IGI batch C023191 baptised 24/9/1816 daughter of Joseph & Mary.

Possible baptism for Joseph 20/4/1782 Bethesda Chapel Truro C065441  son of William & Ann

Lots of mentions for the name on the Cornwall Record office search

http://crocat.cornwall.gov.uk/dserve/dserve.exe?dsqApp=Archive&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqCmd=Search.tcl
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline osprey

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Re: 1834 Letter - Joseph Carne
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 01 March 09 20:11 GMT (UK) »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Carne

Elizabeth Catherine Thomas Carne bp Phillack 15/5/1820
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb


Offline Paul Caswell

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Re: 1834 Letter - Joseph Carne
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 01 March 09 20:27 GMT (UK) »
I noticed that possibility osprey and it fits nicely but I am not clear yet whether Caroline is Joseph's daughter or not. I wonder what connection Caroline has with W Horner?

My concern is with the word 'settlement'. What might the settlement be for? If Joseph is a banker he may be talking about 'Caroline Melvill'. This is certainly worth chasing up. I haven't traced Philip Melvill yet so I don't know if he had a daughter Caroline.

The tone of the letter certainly suggests a familial connection but we may be talking about a Caroline Carne or a Caroline Melvill or even a Caroline Horner.

Good catch on the Wiki entry. That will almost certainly be the one in Madron but was it he who wrote the letter?

Paul
Caswell - Durham(Jarrow), Northumberland(Berwick), Dorset(Netherbury)
Drury - Middlesex(Kensington), Shropshire(Oswestry/Selattyn)
Turner - Dorset(Parkstone)
Speight - Essex(Braintree), Kent(Gravesend), Westmorland(Kendal)
Stockley - Dorset(Corfe Castle)
Amey - Suffolk(Haverhill)
Cousins - Norfolk(Ketteringham)
Sears - Bedfordshire(Potton), Cambridgeshire(Gamlingay)
Census information is Crown Copyright

Offline osprey

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Re: 1834 Letter - Joseph Carne
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 01 March 09 21:54 GMT (UK) »
can't see anyone by the name of Horner, Harker or Melvill in the 1841 census of Cornwall. There's an Elizabeth Horner, landed proprietor, in 1851 HO107/1913 folio 41 pg 14.

The baptisms of Joseph's children in Phillack record him as a merchant. 
Mary Carne is evidently not in good health and there is a burial of a Mary Carne aged 58 7/8/1835 in Phillack who lived in Penzance.

I thought the settlement could be the property given to Caroline on her marriage. But Caroline Carne doesn't marry as far as I can see. She does own property, though. She comes up on the record office search as well. Possibly family property? There's a will for a William Carne of Penzance on the National Archives PROB 11/1865 which runs to 3 parts and must refer to property in more than just Cornwall as it was proved in the Prerogative Court of Canterbury. Possibly the will for Joseph's father?

Perhaps Caroline was planning to marry a Mr Harker but the marriage didn't take place?

Found a reference to Philip Melvill 1796-1882 who was the military secretary to the East India Company in London from 1837. He had been in the Bengal Army and was the son of James Cosmo Melvill. 

Just spotted a submitted baptism for a Caroline Melville dau of Philip & Eliza (Sandys) 2/5/1832. Also a submitted marriage for Philip & Eliza in St Keverne.

even more confused

 :-\    ::)
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline osprey

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Re: 1834 Letter - Joseph Carne
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 01 March 09 22:09 GMT (UK) »
Philip Melvill & family in 1851 are in Paddington HO107/1467 folio 357 pg 10. He is born Topsham and they have a son called Teignmouth. Census entries for Philip in St Winnow from 1861 - 1881. Evidently a wealthy family. The 1871 entry for the household at Ethy House takes up the whole page.

Haven't spotted any obvious family links between the 2 families as yet.

Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb