london irish rifles 1944

[Sarmat]

Hi Pete,

Here is the recent reply of July 26, 2010 from the LIR Regimental Association regarding Rifleman L.A. Armitage.  It is self-explanatory, but if what you say is correct then what Capt. Wilkinson says perhaps does not apply.  It is all very confusing with being drafted into one, attached to another, etc.etc.  As he was very young, perhaps there is some truth to what the Assoc. says after all. Let me know if the attachment comes through all right.  I still do not know if he came home from the war as I can't find him period.  But from another Forum I belong to, one fellow sent me information with various matimonial annotations for a Lawrence Armitage after the war.  But again, a highly expensive proposal to trace each and every one.

[Sarmat]

Just a thought.  If his own regiment doesn' t have his service records, would MOD have them??? In other words, would there be any point to paying the £30 to have his service records traced if we already know they are not available?? Or unless his original regiment was another and NOT the London Irish Rifles??

[Pete Keane]

I am of the opinion that the only way to answer the question of what happened to him is to obtain his Service History.

It will show one of several things - he survived the war & was released from service, he was killed in service (for which his dog tags would have been recovered), or he was missing presumed dead.

Talk of desertion, criminal gangs etc, is at this stage pure speculation. Consider the letters he received- does this sound like a young man who simply deserted, he had people waiting for him at home.

His service history shows he was drafted to the KOYLI - it is entirely possible this was to their young soldiers battalion, but again, we can only find that from his service history.

I still see nothing to indicate that he didnt survive the war and go on to lead a civilian life, it is a great irony of researching soldiers that finding dead ones is very easy, finding the survivors is very hard indeed - I believe at this stage that we are looking for a man who survived the war, which is a difficult task.

To clear up sarmats last post, the mod hold service records, not the regiments - as his service number and name are known then there will be a record for him - this is because men did move around and the mod were the central record holder.

It is possible that we can locate a copy of the Bn war diary, if so we can see what they were doing and what mentions there are of casualties - it would specifically mention a desertion if one was known - but if he was shown in the war diary as having been killed then he would be on the cwgc site.

Will do a little more digging and see what comes to the surface.

Pete

[Pete Keane]

Could you let me know the latest date of any of the letters.

We can work out from the war diary when he was in the village the letters were found in, but at the moment I need to find a copy of the diary.

Pete

[mmm45]

Could he have been serving with the Canadians?
2nd Battalion Irish Regiment of Canada fought in Italy ....CMF is that not Canadian Military Forces??? Just a thought?

Ady

[Pete Keane]

Hi Ady,

I think the unit details are for LIR, the letter from the assoc. shows then as being part of 47th Div. I will check once I can get a war diary.

Pete

edit. Found the following piece of info:

The 2nd Bn served with the 38th Irish Bde in Tunisia and then again 38th Bde with the 78th Div in Italy where it fought at Cassino. During WW2 the London irish suffered over 700 kia.

(Cassino was Jan - May 1944.)

Wiki shows the make up of 78th Div:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/78th_Infantry_Division_%28United_Kingdom%29

[mmm45]

Yes forget that red herring.......... read the YEP piece wrong!!!! its 3 different addresses

 CMF in ww2 is "Central Mediterranean Force!"

Ady

[Sarmat]

Hi, I've just come back on and read both your posts.  I'll get onto the information in the morning (Italian time) that you have asked for.  I can see that the logical thing to do is to get his service records, otherwise we will get nowhere.  I'll go to the site that mmm45 mentioned and look into the procedure.  Thanks for this great amount of input.  I was stymied up to this point but now feel more positive. 

[Sarmat]

Taken from web-site for requesting service records:  "The Ministry of Defence (MOD) is the custodian of the Records of Service of Service personnel until they are opened to general public access at The National Archives. Subject to the payment of a search fee of £30 per record and provision of a death certificate (except where death was in service), certain information can be provided from these records on request under the MOD’s publication scheme."
 
I don't have the knowledge of his death so how can I proceed???

Dates of letters from earliest to latest:
 
July 30/43 -  From his sister W. (Winifred) Armitage, addressed to: Rifleman Armitage L.A. - No. 4694638, "D" Coy. No. 4.  Batt. - I.R.T.D. British North -  African Forces

Aug. 17/43 -  From girl friend Cpl. Mary Bailie (herself with a rank and service number:  W/91864), addressed to:   RIFLEMAN ARMITAGE L.A. 4694638 - D doy. 4th BATT. I.R.T.D. - BRITISH NORTH AFRICAN - FORCES

Aug. 23/43 - From girl friend Cpl. Mary Bailie, addressed to:  RIFLEMAN ARMITAGE LA. 4694638, then the following:  D COY. 4 BATT. I.R.T.D. written in the sender's own hand but crossed out with a line through it (looks to have been done by the Post Person, obviously a military man/censorist??) and on the last 2 lineS:  BRITISH NORTH AFRICAN - FORCES.  In barely leggible script the following is written in the new hand to the side of the address:  78 Div 15 Coy and something else but it is not leggible in the photocopy; I would have to see the original which is in the hands of my Italian friend.

Sept. 1/43 -  From his mother, Mrs. J. Armitage [Janet Armitage (nèe Scarth)], addressed to:  4694638 - Rifleman Armitage, L.A. - "D" Coy, No.4 Batt. - I.R.T.D. - B.N.A.F.  (nothing cancelled out)

Sept. 4/43 - From his girl friend Connie Bithell, addressed to:  Rifleman Armitage, L.A. 4694638 - "C" Coy:  4th Battalion, -  No. 1 (I'm not too sure about this No. 1 - it's not written well) I.R.T.D. - British North African Forces. Nothing is cancelled out but "78 DIV" is written to the side.

Oct. 31/43 - From his mother, addressed to: 4694638, Rifleman Armitage L.A. - 9 Sec. 15 Plt G. Coy - 2nd L.I. Rifles, - C.M.F.

Nov. 10/43 - From Connie, addressed to:  RIFLEMAN ARMITAGE L.A. - 4694638, - 9 SEC:  15 PLT:  "G" COY: - 2nd BATT: - L.I.R. - C.M.F.

Nov. 31/43 - From Connie, addressed to:  RIFLEMAN ARMITAGE, L. A. 4694638 - "G" COY:  2nd BATT: - LONDON IRISH RIFLES - C.M.F.

In transcribing these addresses, I have remained faithful to the sender's addressing style and punctuation.  The use of a dash (-) is my own to separate for you the lines of the address.

Sarmat