110th army troop royal engineers,East Lancashire.

[gortonboy]

I'm not sure, I ordered the first one of a chap online, but it wasn't cheap. I'm not up on the charges from the national archives at the moment. I'll have a look.

[gortonboy]

I could be wrong about the size of the 110th. A field troop is 44 men. But I've seen pictures of just the band, and there's nearly 40 men in that. So maybe an army troop was more.

[LamBowes]

Here's Bill Lambs

Thanks for this.  I've not been on here for a while, so didn't see it until now.

[gortonboy]

Here's Bill Lambs

Thanks for this.  I've not been on here for a while, so didn't see it until now.

No problem x

[LamBowes]

Hi I have just located my grandads tracer card and it was googling some of the codes in it I found this thread.  It would seem he was in the BEF 21/10/1939 and then discharged under KR1940 but on the second page there is the following Ylist (E6/110ELATcoy) 10.1.42. It was the reference between the brackets that brought me here.

it is a fascinating thread and ive scanned all the pics to no avail im not even sure if 110ELAT relates to the troop in this thread however one of your pics states they are in Falkland Dundee, and I know for a fact that my grandad was up in Falkland long enough to move his wife and son (my dad)  up there an have another son up there. Does anybody know what they were doing in Falkland, from the pics it seems like they moved on but im positive my father etc was up there for some time

any light anybody can shed on this would be much appreciated.

thanks
Steve

Hi Steve
According to my Dad, following their arrival back from France, the 110th "spent two years training", with much of it being done in Scotland. 

I have the telegram that my Dad sent to my Mam on his arrival at Plymouth on 20 June 1940 "after the Battle of France"; the 110th were evacuated from St Nazaire.  He made the point that there has always been a focus on Dunkirk and that it was easy for people to believe that it was all over at Dunkirk, when evacuations were still taking place from St Nazaire ten days later.

In 2018, I visited the National Archives and read some of the 110th Diaries and remember seeing a communication from one of the officers - I think it might have been Everson, but as I cannot currently put my hand on my notes, I cannot be sure.  The officer was writing from Falkland House and was responding to a complaint by the War Office, that he had failed to submit his Diary record for a specific date (when the 110th were still in France).  Reading the Diaries, it is easy to see why a record that had been written and submitted to the WO, would go astray.  Although the language in the entries is restrained, it was clearly chaos, to the extent that equipment the men had been told to retain, had in fact been destroyed. They were expecting to receive the evacuation order at any minute and had little idea of what was going on.

I think it is likely your Granddad was at Falkland House soon after June 1940.  I've looked at my Dad's records and he didn't go on leave in 1940 until 22 November (for 7 days).  This Leave record and the officer's communication from Falkland House, suggests the 110th were there soon after June 1940.  Your Uncle's birth record should also give an indication of the time scale.

My Dad talked about other places in Scotland, such as Rest and Be Thankful and Peebles, but nowhere near as much as about his time at Falkland. He used to tell lots of stories about his time at Falkland House - many about the ghost and one in particular about him being very popular with the village folk for First Footing on New Year's Day.  My Dad had jet black hair and being male, was invited into many households, to bring good luck.  I reckon he was in Falkland in January 1941 and possibly January 1942, as the 110th did not leave for North Africa until December 1942. 

I visited Falkland village in 2019 and seeing Falkland Palace (which I thought was Falkland House), I could not reconcile it with the building behind the men in the photo. The staff at the Palace put me straight - Falkland House is a cock's stride outside Falkland's main street and it is now a school.  The House is so close to the village, you can easily see how the 110th would have been very much a part of the village's life. Falkland is a lovely village and the people were very welcoming, if you ever get chance to follow in your Granddad's footsteps.

Hope this information helps.
Cheers
Elaine

[cartesr]

Hi Elaine
many many thanks for providing that background information, thats really helpful. My uncle was born in October 1941 and actually baptised in the chapel at Falkland Palace. I was under the impression that my grandfather actually stayed up there til the end or near the end of the war, well thats the impression I got from my dad. Sadly he isnt around anymore to ask. My dad moved up to Falkland from Manchester with his mum (probably after the evacuation of the BEF) and when I was a child my dad took us up to Falkland and even showed us the one roomed house they lived in, thinking about it now I would think that he wouldnt have lived in that house with his father I would have that wouldnt have been allowed. I can assume that they were there at some point in 1941, although I guess my grandfather didnt have to be there at the birth in October :-).  Many many years later I actually lived in Perth not far from Falkland and while living up there I visited the palace and even managed to find the house (it was very close to the Palace) to show my own children. The reason I have a gap in many of the facts is that my grandfather died in 1948 and soon after starting to research my family history my father and his brother passed away. So there isnt anyone around anymore or even flipping photos to assist in my research.  Anyway, once again many thanks for the information that you have provided me. This thread has taught me so much
kind regards

Steve

[Andy J2022]

I could be wrong about the size of the 110th. A field troop is 44 men. But I've seen pictures of just the band, and there's nearly 40 men in that. So maybe an army troop was more.

Hi everyone. What a really great thread.  I have no connection with this Company or the Royal Engineers, but I do have an Army background so I can throw a little light on the size of the unit. The first thing to note is that it wasn't a 'troop', it was a company, commanded by a Major. The words Army Troops in the title mean that it was the Royal Engineers unit employed in support of an Army. It would have been given its tasks by a Lieutenant Colonel on the staff of the Army HQ who had the title Commander Royal Engineers (CRE).  An Army (eg the Eight Army which fought in Egypt and later Italy) is the next size of formation up from a Corps, which is the next size up from a Division.

At the time we are talking about the Royal Engineers was made up of Regiments, which in turn might consist of a number of Companies, which were made up of Platoons. In the post war period the RE started naming their sub-units as Squadrons and Troops.  Gortonboy is correct that the typical size of a field troop can be around 44 men, but it would all depend on the role of the troop.

So going back to the size of 110 (Army Troops) Company RE, since this was an independent unit (ie it wasn't part of a Regiment) I wouldn't be surprised to hear it consisted of anything between 175 - 200 officers and other ranks. The Company probably consisted of four or five platoons, each made up of various specialist tradesmen. Their role consisted of building things like camps, fortifications and repairing roads, airfields and ports. Consequently, the sort of trades found among the soldiers would include plant operators, surveyors, bricklayers, plasterers, painters, plumbers, electricians and other trades typically found the construction industry, as well as mechanics etc the keep the vehicles and plant running. I can't remember who it is who has the complete war diaries for the unit, but you may find that they occasionally include strength returns, which obviously would give you the most authoritative figure for the size of the unit.   

[LamBowes]

I could be wrong about the size of the 110th. A field troop is 44 men. But I've seen pictures of just the band, and there's nearly 40 men in that. So maybe an army troop was more.

Hi everyone. What a really great thread.  I have no connection with this Company or the Royal Engineers, but I do have an Army background so I can throw a little light on the size of the unit. The first thing to note is that it wasn't a 'troop', it was a company, commanded by a Major. The words Army Troops in the title mean that it was the Royal Engineers unit employed in support of an Army. It would have been given its tasks by a Lieutenant Colonel on the staff of the Army HQ who had the title Commander Royal Engineers (CRE).  An Army (eg the Eight Army which fought in Egypt and later Italy) is the next size of formation up from a Corps, which is the next size up from a Division.

At the time we are talking about the Royal Engineers was made up of Regiments, which in turn might consist of a number of Companies, which were made up of Platoons. In the post war period the RE started naming their sub-units as Squadrons and Troops.  Gortonboy is correct that the typical size of a field troop can be around 44 men, but it would all depend on the role of the troop.

So going back to the size of 110 (Army Troops) Company RE, since this was an independent unit (ie it wasn't part of a Regiment) I wouldn't be surprised to hear it consisted of anything between 175 - 200 officers and other ranks. The Company probably consisted of four or five platoons, each made up of various specialist tradesmen. Their role consisted of building things like camps, fortifications and repairing roads, airfields and ports. Consequently, the sort of trades found among the soldiers would include plant operators, surveyors, bricklayers, plasterers, painters, plumbers, electricians and other trades typically found the construction industry, as well as mechanics etc the keep the vehicles and plant running. I can't remember who it is who has the complete war diaries for the unit, but you may find that they occasionally include strength returns, which obviously would give you the most authoritative figure for the size of the unit.

Thanks for this information Andy.
I have several documents that read 110th East Lancs Company R.E. and 110th East Lancs Army
Troop COY R.E. and one document that reads 110th (East Lancs) Army Troops COY R.E., so it is good to have the term 'Army Troops' put into context.

My Dad enlisted in May 1939 as a 'Driver' and in January 1941 he was re-mustered as a 'Driver Mechanic'; his Service Records show that he passed the Trade Test as a Motor Mechanic.  He had been an Apprentice Engineer for several years, until my granddad died and my grannie forced him out of his apprenticeship, to take up a driving job that paid more.  I guess his engineering background attracted him to the R.E. and the 110th capitalised on his driving and mechanical skills.  He told several stories of driving here and there, to source parts for repairs.  On one occasion, in North Africa, he and Gil Almond (I have referred to Gil in an earlier post) were on a mission to secure much needed parts and they stopped to rest.  My Dad was dozing in the shadow of his vehicle, when he became aware of 'missiles' landing around him.  He assumed Gil was throwing them, as they used to pull each others leg, so said nothing.  When one of the 'missiles' hit him, he told Gil to "Pack it in".  Gill responded that he had done nothing.  Then 'missiles' began to land around Gil, who was likewise dozing in the shadow of his vehicle.  Being irritated at the situation, they came out from the shadows, to find a large troop of Baboons lobbing rocks at them!
Cheers
Elaine (LamBowes)

[LamBowes]

Hi Elaine
many many thanks for providing that background information, thats really helpful. My uncle was born in October 1941 and actually baptised in the chapel at Falkland Palace. I was under the impression that my grandfather actually stayed up there til the end or near the end of the war, well thats the impression I got from my dad. ...................

Steve

Hi Steve
I am going to respond to your message in chunks, to keep within the word limit.
I'd be surprised if your grandfather was at Falkland near the end or until the end of the War, though I guess that when the War ended, he may have returned there, given his family were there.  I'm not surprised he moved them to Falkland.  You've seen the village.  It would have been a far cleaner environment than Manchester and much safer.  We lived close to the train lines and my mam saw the bomb that fell in the next street, after the 'all clear' had been given; I bet she would have preferred to be living somewhere safer.

I was fortunate, that my Dad talked a great deal about his time in the Army, that he lived until just after his 89th Birthday and that I have his documents and photographs - though some items that he had, e.g. silk cards he sent to my Mam, 'disappeared' after he died.  Looking at his paperwork, aside from the time he was on leave or in hospital, it appears he was with the 110th from start to finish.  He enlisted on 11th May 1939 and went on Release Leave on 9th October 1945.  I have listed his chronology of events previously, but I'll list them again, so you and others don't have to scour through the posts.  These are the likely places your grandfather served in:
France - October 1939 to June 1940 with the 42nd and 46th Division. 
I saw a document regarding the B.E.F. on the Internet some years ago, that had the 110th listed in the 'Lines of Communication' section.
There is a photo on here that was taken in Southampton in 1939, on which my Dad has noted "Leaving for France".  I can count 44 men on the photo, one of which I can only see his left shoulder and another, a small section of his face and I'm betting that all are from the 110th.
20th June 1940 - Arrived at Plymouth, following evacuation from St Nazaire.
Reading the Diaries, I gained the impression that the 110th moved to the port as a unit.  My Dad has listed five ships he travelled on to/from France and I cannot be certain which was the ship that returned him from Plymouth.
Scotland - 1940 to 1942
Judging by the correspondence from the officer regarding the 'missing' diary entry, (I think it was Everson), the 110th were in Falkland soon after 20th June 1940.  According to my Dad's R.E. Card, he 'proceeded to Port for embarkation' on 19th November 1942. 
North Africa 1942 to 1943 with the 1st Army
The entry on my Dad's R.E. card shows the 110th embarked for North Africa on 1st December 1942.  The entry that follows, states that he 'disembarked in UK' on 28th December 1942.  This, I don't understand, as there is only 27 days between embarking for North Africa and disembarking in the UK, but it is certainly correct, as I have a telegram that my Dad sent to my Mam on 29th December 1942, stating that he had "landed safely" and was "trying for Leave".  He has noted on the telegram that he was applying for "S" Leave and that he had been in the Atlantic on the SS Norelge. Did the 110th embark in Scotland? My Dad was granted 8 days 'Priv' Leave between the 12th and 19th January 1943.
Continued.....