Lt Shelford - which John NORTHFIELD married Jane?

[Stovepipe]

Hi RootsChatters

In the village of Little Shelford there were two men named John NORTHFIELD who were first cousins:

John son of Francis & Ann NORTHFIELD, baptised 30 April 1780;
John son of John & Lydia NORTHFIELD, baptised 16 September 1781.

(I think in both cases the surname is probably spelled NORFIELD in the register and NORTHFIELD in the BT.)


There were two marriages in 1801 at the village church:

16 August 1801, John NORTHFIELD otp & Sarah RICHARDS of Hartford Hunts;
7 September 1801, John NORTHFIELD & Jane DOSSON (or DAWSON) botp, witnesses: Thomas AUSTIN, William CHAMBERS.


My question is: who were Jane DAWSON's parents in law?  Does anyone have access to the Little Shelford registers to check for any additional clue to identify the Johns of the marriages with their namesakes of the baptisms?

There's an excellent website for Little Shelford family historians:

http://members.optushome.com.au/robalsmith/index.htm

It's very good not just because of the mass of data, but also because information is backed up with references to sources.  The site has the John NORTHFIELD who married Jane as the son of Francis and Ann.  But I can't find any support for that identification.  The names of the two couples' children don't help much - there's no Lydia or Francis, just an Ann born to John & Jane (but that's such a common name that it's not any real help).  My research in other areas contradicts at least one of the site's pedigrees, so I'd rather not accept that Francis & Ann's son married Jane without supporting evidence.  Can any RootsChatter provide any?  Unfortunately both Johns seem to have died before the 1841 census.

Thanks for any help.
Stovepipe

[lizdb]

What a tricky one!
But I totally agree that is could be a mistake to assume which John married which bride without any sort of evidence.

My only ideas (not that they are much good) are:

1) Does either John happen to have a sister who marries a Chambers or an Austin? (making witnesses his brother in law) or are they already proven to be either rellies of the bride, or just church wardens or similar?

2)Do Francis and Ann or John and Lydia leaves wills? With the outside chance of a mention of a daughter in law?

3) Do either John and Sarah or John and Jane make it to a census? if so is there any chance they have a very elderly parent living with them? Likewise, is a very elderly Lydia or Ann living with any one who can be proved to be a sibling of either of your Johns?

4) On a similar line, does either Lydia or Ann die after 1837? If so, who registers birth and can they be linked definitely to either of the then married-with-families- Johns? Or the address where they die? or anything?

Sorry, can only offer these rather thin straws to clutch at...

[lizdb]

No sure if it helps - but this could be the Lydia in 1841

HO107 74 9
High Green Grt Shelford
Lydia 75 widow bn in Cty
Hannah 50 bn in county

[carol8353]

Any clues in what names they give their children?

Named after grannie and grandad perhaps?

Carol

[Stovepipe]

Hi Liz & Carol

Thanks for your useful pointers.  Here's more of what I've found.

Witnesses.
The Little Shelford website identifies witness William Chambers as the son of William Chambers and Ann Clarke.  There is no mention of him marrying a Northfield girl (rather he married Susannah Marshall), but his mother's maiden name is given as a middle name to one of John & Lydia Northfield's sons - viz. William Clarke Northfield.
The other witness, Thomas Austin, married Ann Ward Kitely in Little Shelford.  In 1841 there's a Joseph Northfield in their house, aged 20.  The website doesn't make the connection, but given the rounding down of ages in 1841 it's possible (just) to identify Joseph as the son of William Clarke Northfield baptised 24 March 1816, making Joseph the grandson of John & Lydia.
If this evidence has any value then it points to Jane's in-laws being John & Lydia, not as the site has it, Francis and Ann.

Wills.
I can't find any Northfield of Little Shelford wills using the Access to Archives site.  If there's any other source for an index to Cambridgeshire wills I'd be grateful to know it.  (It's quite possible there are other sources unknown to me - I'm new to Cambridgeshire research.)

Census.
Yes, I think John's mother Lydia is the woman in the 1841 census (many thanks for posting the details, Liz).  I've yet to identify Hannah's relationship to her - it's something I need to find out, but it may well not turn out to be helpful in answering this particular question.

Children.
All those I've identified are no help - both couples had daughters named Ann, none a child named Francis or Lydia.  John & Sarah only had daughters; John & Jane had a son John - hard to say he's named after the grandfather when the father is called John!

Anything else.
There's a Sarah & Ann Northfield, aged 65 & 35, living in Little Shelford in 1841 - these may be John's widow & daughter (i.e. the John who married Sarah Richards).  Not much help, though.  There's only a small chance a death certificate for Lydia may help so I was hoping to exhaust other types of evidence before investing the £7 (limited budget, I'm afraid!)

Thanks for all your help - it's much appreciated.

Stovepipe

[Stovepipe]

Here's another aspect to this puzzle that might help solve it.  John NORTHFIELD (whichever one he was) and Jane DAWSON had a son, James NORTHFIELD who married a widow, Harriet NORTHFIELD.  (This is one area where I disagree with the website - it has Harriet's second husband as the son of James NORTHFIELD, brother of John, son of Francis and Ann.)

Harriet's two husbands were related, and the relationship depends on which of the John NORTHFIELD cousins married Jane.

If Jane married the son of Francis and Ann then Harriet's second husband was the first cousin, once removed of her first.  But if Jane married John and Lydia's son then Harriet married the nephew of her first husband.

Confusing, isn't it?

But the simple question is this: would a second marriage to the nephew of one's first husband be acceptable to the Church in a small Cambridgeshire village (Little Shelford) around the late 1820s?  (I take it a remarriage to a cousin once removed was acceptable - it seems a distant enough relationship.)

Harriet and her second husband married in the local church in 1828 and had a couple of children baptised there before leaving for London sometime after 1832.  So they seem to have been accepted.  Given this, is it likely her first husband was the uncle of her second?

Thanks for any help.
Stovepipe

[bedfordshire boy]

The Book of Common Prayer 1662 governed prohibited marriages, and included the following:

A Woman may not marry with her

   1.   Grandfather,
   2.   Grandmother's Husband,
   3.   Husband's Grandfather.
   4.   Father's Brother,
   5.   Mother's Brother,
   6.   Father's Sister's Husband.
   7.   Mother's Sister's Husband,
   8.   Husband's Father's Brother,
   9.   Husband's Mother's Brother.
  10.   Father,
  11.   Step-Father,
  12.   Husband's Father.
  13.   Son,
  14.   Husband's Son,
  15.   Daughter's Husband.
  16.   Brother,
  17.   Husband's Brother.
  18.   Sister's Husband.
  19.   Son's Son,
  20.   Daughter's Son,
  21.   Son's Daughter's Husband.
  22.   Daughter's Daughter's Husband,
  23.   Husband's Son's Son,
  24.   Husband's Daughter's Son.
  25.   Brother's Son,
  26.   Sister's Son,
  27.   Brother's Daughter's Husband.
  28.   Sister's Daughter's Husband,
  29.   Husband's Brother's Son,
  30.   Husband's Sister's Son.

Various amendments have been made over the years, from 1907 onwards and #29 was removed from the list by the 1931 Marriage Act.

Just because it was prohited didn't mean that such a marriage didn't happen.

David

[Stovepipe]

Thanks, David, that's a useful list.  I accept what you say about prohibited marriages sometimes happening, but often that would be in a foreign parish.  But then Harriet would was no blood relation to her second husband - maybe in such cases, and in a village where so many inhabitants shared a surname, the priest would have a more relaxed attitude that that of earlier times.  Who knows ...?

Stovepipe