COMPLETED Help with this hand

[stonechat]

This is part of a feet of fines from 1706
It is in Latin and the hand is unknown to me.

I need to master the nad and can't make out many words
First do you recognise the hand and is there any reference to it?

Has anyone had a stab at these.

Bob

[Roger in Sussex]

Hi Bob, this is the hand used by the Court of Common Pleas at this date.

See:-

http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/index.shtml

The first line reads, roughly 

Hec est finalis concordat fta in cur' =  This is the final agreement made in the court

I think you would soon get the hang of it, it is a bit like learning to ride a bike - one minute you can't, and then suddenly it becomes relatively easy. Think of it as a very formalised version of Secretary Hand.

Could you put up a few complete lines? It could afford to be a bit smaller oif necessary to get them in.

Regards

Roger

[Roger in Sussex]

Hi again Bob,

this ref may be some use, though the individual courts each developed their own style over the years.

http://www.catholic-history.org.uk/nwchs/court_hand_script.htm

Roger

[stonechat]

Hi

The first problem is that because I could not read it, I don't know which of the batch was the one I am looking for.

I am slowly getting the hang but there quite a lot of letters I still don't recognise
I am OK on secretary hand

Here are a few lines
They are all in more or less the same format

[Roger in Sussex]

Hi,

Thanks for that sample. I'll see what I can make of it. Hopefully some other(s) will have a go too, to get further opinions!

Roger

[Roger in Sussex]

Hi Bob,

here is my first effort. I'll have another look at it tomorrow - sometimes things that puzzle one do so less after a night's sleep!

I hope it's some use to you

Roger



Hec est finalis concordantia facta in curiam Domine Regine apud Westmonasterium in crastino Sancte

Trinitatis  Anno Anne Dei gratia Anglie Francie & Hibernie Regine

fidei  defensor &c A[nno?]  quinto coram Thoma Tro? Johanne [Blemdale?]

Roberte [Triley ?] & Roberte [Wimess?] Justiciis & aliis domine Regine fidelibus tunc ibi

presentibus Inter Mauricium [Baely?] querentem et Henricum [L???] & Franciscam Uxorem eius

deforciatores de Une duobus Uno gardino tribus pomariis quindecim

acris terre quinque acris prati & sex acris pasture cum pertinentiis in [Thorpe?] unde

[Roger in Sussex]

Hi Bob,

Overnight I have realised that I have a "crib" for three of the names of the justices.

I have a copy of "The Present  State of England, 1704", which has a list of Queen Anne's principal officials, including the justices of the Court of Common Pleas. Three of them were apparently still in office in 1706.

Lord Chief Justice, Sir Thomas Trevor, Kt.
Sir John Blencoe, Kt.
Sir Robert Tracey, Kt.

The third was Sir Edward Nevill, Kt. , who was senior to Blencoe and Tracey, so perhaps had died by 1706?

I think the word after Anno in the second line might be regnorum, treating each of Queen Anne's kingdoms as a separate reign. The second unread word in the second line I now see is Scotie - how did I miss that?

Sorry, I have no further thoughts on the other problem words, which are most likely the ones that most interest you! 

Roger

[stonechat]

Hi

My first difficulty was that as I could not read the hand, I could not identify which with the batch of 15 related to the person I was interested in, I realised though that these were fairly formulaic and there was not so much variation between them.

Thanks to your help, hopefully, I can read through and find the names of the parties.

I am looking for the one with my ancestor Joshua Joyce. I already have a document in English from the local RO where he takes out a lease on a bakery in 1699.
Due to an index prepared by W Surrey FHS I know that he and the same other partyfrom the original transaction are also  involved in the feet of fines, which may be for the same or another premises.  The building incidentally is still standing and is now (at least partially) occupied by Godalming Museum.

I will have a real bash over the next few nights to see if I can make sense of this.
I have fairly little latin, though I can make sense usually and my wife has studied latin and even taught a long while ago

This area of different hand used by different offices is really quite interesting, I found some interesting information on the hands and sample alphabets, though this seemed worse than those I found

I will post these in the useful links section

Bob

[Roger in Sussex]

Hi,

glad you found it useful.

Probably you've thought of this, but if the words "presentibus Inter" occur as a matter of course - the first ending the preamble and the other introducing the parties - they would make a useful landmark and save a lot of unnecessary searching through routine verbiage.

Good hunting

Roger