Ideas on the ethnicity of my grandfather?

[Redroger]

So, you would seem to be looking for a Jesuit educated man, probably from the western part of Ireland. For my own reference do any Jesuit school records survive?

[Andcarred]

Hi,

I am very interested in the Dupyutons contracture part of your query as I have this myself and so did my later father.  My grandfather was Swedish so I assume this is where we have inherited this complaint. 

My thought is that many Irish people are descended from Vikings so of course have the Scandinavian background which includes the blue eyes and often red hair.

Andcarred

[oldcrone]

Thanks for all these further comments and suggestions!  (Sorry I've been a bit late replying, but I've been away from the computer for a few days.)

Nick29: yes, I do think he had to 'live on his wits'!  To clarify: the first record I have of him is 1900 in London joining a Irish/Canadian regiment - he called himself James Aloysius Smith, birthdate 1881, Ottawa.  In 1905, he deserted the army and joined the Royal Navy (still calling himself James Aloysius Smith, birthdate 1883, Ottawa).  A year later, while still in the navy, he married a Lambeth woman (his first wife) - he called himself John Arthur Shaw on his marriage certificate.  Soon after his marriage, he deserted the navy and set up home in Lambeth, where he worked as a gas stoker.  In 1910, there was a King's Pardon regarding army deserters and, for whatever reason, he rejoined his Leinster regiment.  He had to assume his original 'army' name of James Aloysius Smith, so at this point, he's using two names!

After WW1, he returned to England and continued to live here for the rest of his life as John Arthur Shaw (he died in 1975, aged about 95).  I have a Canadian passport issued to him during the '50s - I have gathered via the Canadian Archives site that records of old passport applications no longer exist, and also that anyone applying for a Canadian passport around this time didn't have to provide any verification of nationality.  Apparently, my grandfather was always very cagey about his past, though he told his children that he was an orphan, was originally from Ireland (Tipperary is his birthplace on his obituary), and that he was brought up by the White Fathers, or some such religious order, in an orphanage in Canada.  I've tried to track down orphanage records in Ottawa, but drawn a blank.

As you can imagine, it's really difficult to unpick all this: were Smith or Shaw his real names? was he born in Canada or in Ireland (someone has looked up Ottawa births for the various names in 1881 and 1883 and not found him)?  It's almost as though he was constantly running away from his past, and throwing up smokescreens along the way!

Thanks, Redroger and jds1949 for your comments... as to the name 'Aloysius', yes, I have wondered about the link to Catholicism, though he put on his army records that he was Protestant; his second wife (my grandmother) was actually a Catholic, but I don't think he ever went to church with her!

Andcarred: my uncle (the only one surviving of my grandfather's 5 children) also has Dupuytren's, and has had to have some of his fingers amputated.  I met him for the first time a few years ago (he lives in N Zealand) and the first thing he did was examine my hands!

Many thanks again, everyone -  all food for thought for a desperate woman!   

[sarahsean]

My husband is Irish and has dark hair and blue eyes. However when he was a child he had blond hair which got darker as he aged. Do you have any photos of your grandfather as a child to see if this is the same in your family?

My father`s family emigrated to Canada in 1946 and he later applied for Canadian citizenship gaining dual English and Canadian citizenship. Perhaps if your grandfather had been in Canada for long enough he was able to become naturalized as Canadian.  I don`t know the rules regarding Canada but here in Ireland you can become naturalized after 10 years. My fathers grandmother died in Canada after they had been there 11 years and had become naturalized on her death records it was stated she was a naturalized Canadian of British origin. Perhaps then he was able to apply for a Canadian passport and from then on told people he was Canadian.

Regards
Sarah

[oldcrone]

Thanks, Sarah - I think our posts just about crossed at the same time!

The two photos I've posted at the beginning are the earliest photos I have of him - one in his army gear in India, and the other (I think) post-WW1. Two of my uncles took after my grandfather in looks/colouring, but the few early photos of both show them as fairly dark (rather than blond).

As to the Canadian citizenship issue, my grandfather never lived in Canada after he joined the British army in 1900 (though he gave his birthplace as Ottawa).

ETA: I actually have no documentary evidence that he ever lived in Canada, other than what he said (although I do think it's likely that he was there as a child).  Incidentally, he sent two of his sons as 'Home Children' to Canada when they were 17; my uncle Jack in 1925, just after the death of my grandfather's first wife, and my uncle Len in 1930.  Apparently, they "never forgave my grandfather" for doing this.

[oldcrone]

ps meant to say as well: anyone still with me!!!

[Redroger]

Sarah, I see that you are researching Butt, where are they located? I know that some went to Newfoundland from Dorset, and wondered if they are some of these if you know their originating point in Dorset?

[c-side]

Yes, still with you and following with fascination.

The White Fathers may be worth looking into - they are African Missionaries but can be found in Ireland - don't know about Canada or UK.  This link will take you to a newsletter with a Dublin postal address and an email address.  It may be worth asking them a question or two.

http://www.africamission-mafr.org/irelandmay06.htm

Christine

[Daisy Loo]

There was an earlier suggestion, that your grandfather's father was a sailor/soldier that visited Irish shores, and became friendly with an Irish woman.  From reading all the posts, my take is that this scenario is indeed possible, and that O'Connell could well have been his mother's name.  There were two garrisons in Tipperary, Fethard & Clonmel.  My GGG-Grandfather was Scottish, joined the RA, and came to Ireland where he met my GGG-Grandmother.  She was Catholic, he was Protestant.  They married in 1846, in Clonmel.

So, if this was the case with your great-grandparents, if the father didn't marry the mother, it could be that your grand-father was born illigimate, and either abandoned as an orphan (and raised in a Jesuit Orphanage?), or given up for adoption.  Being given up for adoption in those days wasn't really a happy ending either, and could have resulted in him being left at a boys home.  Ships of Orphans were known to have gone to Canada.

Perhaps your grand-father didn't know his father's surname?  Perhaps he only knew his father's first names, Smith seems like a name one would choose to be annonymous?  Interesting how he kept the first names all straight though.

Just a few ideas that popped into my head while reading your thread.  Just for info, the first pic of your grandfather, I thought he looked very Irish, the second I wasn't so sure! 

Hope I haven't just repeated a load of stuff!  I do understand your desperation though!  Good luck!

Having just asked my partner (who is Irish) O'Connell seems to be a name from the Tipperary area as well.