Author Topic: Ideas on the ethnicity of my grandfather?  (Read 5240 times)

Offline Nick29

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Re: Ideas on the ethnicity of my grandfather?
« Reply #27 on: Monday 18 May 09 11:16 BST (UK) »
oldcrone, re the marriage to a Lambeth woman (1906), is there a father's name and occupation for the groom ?

Sorry, I notice you already answered this  :-[



RIP 1949-10th January 2013

Best Wishes,  Nick.

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Offline Redroger

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Re: Ideas on the ethnicity of my grandfather?
« Reply #28 on: Tuesday 19 May 09 14:50 BST (UK) »
Oldcrone, What period are you researching for the Hole family in Somerset?
Ayres Brignell Cornwell Harvey Shipp  Stimpson Stubbings (all Cambs) Baumber Baxter Burton Ethards Proctor Stanton (all Lincs) Luffman (all counties)

Offline Nick29

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Re: Ideas on the ethnicity of my grandfather?
« Reply #29 on: Tuesday 19 May 09 15:08 BST (UK) »
oldcrone isn't, but I am !

I am researching the Hole family from my grandfather, back as far as I can.  My grandfather was Bert John Hole, born in Parbrook, East Pennard, in 1876.  I've traced his lineage back to John Hole, also born in East Pennard in 1670.

RIP 1949-10th January 2013

Best Wishes,  Nick.

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Offline Redroger

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Re: Ideas on the ethnicity of my grandfather?
« Reply #30 on: Tuesday 19 May 09 15:18 BST (UK) »
Sorry about that Oldcrone and Nick, the connection with my tree is that a Ron Hole married a Gillian Luffman sometime in the early 20th century. They had one known son, David.
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Offline oldcrone

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Re: Ideas on the ethnicity of my grandfather?
« Reply #31 on: Tuesday 19 May 09 21:27 BST (UK) »
Thanks for the further comments!

c-side: thanks for the link - I've just checked some old info supplied by my late aunt about her father (my grandfather), and she's said that he was brought up as an Irish orphan by "either the White Fathers or the Christian Brothers" in Canada (now this was obviously what my grandfather told her, so it's not necessarily true!).

Daisy Loo: thank you for your insights.  And yes, I've wondered if my grandfather was illegitimate, and perhaps didn't know his real name (which might explain why he gave different names for his father on his two marriage certificates - ie when he married his second wife, he couldn't quite remember what name he'd given the first time round!).  Smith certainly has always seemed to be a bit too obviously anonymous, and also he gave the date of his birth as 1 January (1881 or 1883), which again doesn't quite ring true.

After reading everyone's thoughts and suggestions, I feel overall happier to accept that perhaps my grandfather was an Irish orphan (perhaps illegitimate and maybe from Tipperary), who was sent over to Canada as a young boy and brought up by a religious order.  He ran away/left Canada and ended up in London in 1900, joining the army (he was probably penniless and it meant that it gave him an income of sorts and accommodation).  He was reluctant/embarrassed to talk about his background, perhaps because it held bad memories of impoverishment and, perhaps, abandonment.

Any ideas about trying to find the birth of a James Aloysius Smith/John Arthur Shaw/? O'Connell in Tipperary?!
Shaw/Smith: Ottawa, Canada<br />Davies/Hill: Monmouth/Gloucestershire/Middlesex/Surrey<br />Chatfield: Kent<br />Crone: Kent/Sussex/Surrey/Ireland<br />Lyden: Ireland<br />Pannell, Newland, Proudley (travellers): Sussex/Surrey<br />Dobson, Hollins: Staffs/Cheshire/Warwicks<br />Boys: Sussex/London<br />Payne: Suffolk/London
Hasting(s): Sussex

Offline jds1949

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Re: Ideas on the ethnicity of my grandfather?
« Reply #32 on: Tuesday 19 May 09 21:33 BST (UK) »
The White Fathers are essentially a Catholic Missionary order who work mostly in Africa and South America and, as far as I know. are not directly involved in the education of school children [at least not in England or Ireland]. The Christian Brothers on the other hand are/were heavily involved in the education of boys - in fact running school was pretty much what they did.

jds1949
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Offline c-side

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Re: Ideas on the ethnicity of my grandfather?
« Reply #33 on: Tuesday 19 May 09 22:22 BST (UK) »
Have you tried this website?

http://ifhf.brsgenealogy.com/index.php?&set=yes

Searching the index is free but there is a pay per view if you want details.  According to the site Tipperary is fully online

Christine

Offline c-side

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Re: Ideas on the ethnicity of my grandfather?
« Reply #34 on: Wednesday 20 May 09 00:48 BST (UK) »

Offline Carmela

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Re: Ideas on the ethnicity of my grandfather?
« Reply #35 on: Wednesday 20 May 09 09:00 BST (UK) »
Hi Clara,
Have been following this fascinating puzzle with great interest and thought it was about time to toss in a few thoughts, but they probably won't do much to solve the mystery.  I missed the earlier posts and have been trying to catch up on the story.

Quote
perhaps my grandfather was an Irish orphan (perhaps illegitimate and maybe from Tipperary), who was sent over to Canada as a young boy and brought up by a religious order.

Sorry to disagree,  but I don't think this is really very likely.
Many British orphans were sent to Canada, but not to be brought up in orphanages. They were mostly sent to work on farms  (particularly the boys). Also the majority were sent by children's homes in England. There were some Irish children sent by RC homes but I don't think there were a great many. I have never heard of any child being sent from a childrens' home  and ending up in a similiar establishment in Canada. The whole idea was to get them out of orphanages, out of the city, to start a new life in the wide open spaces of Canada. The reality was  sometimes very different from the dream, but that is another story.

If your grandfather was brought up by a religous order, then he was most probably born in Canada or if he was born in Ireland, there is another possibility for how he ended up in Canada and alone: he could have emigrated with parents and they  could have died on the voyage or soon after arriving in Canada. I am not sure how bad it was in 1880s, but during the peak period of Irish immigration, thousands of Irish people died at sea or in quarantine after their arrival. There were a great many orphaned children, sometimes too young to know their own names. Families were separated when  the sick were sent to the "fever sheds" on an island in the St. Lawrence. Perhaps he really did have two brothers, but had no idea what became of them. Many of these orphaned immigrant children were adopted by other Irish families who had lost their own children.  Perhaps your grandfather was adopted and his new family settled in the Ottawa area.
As far as I know, there was no formal adoption, so probably no records.

 I have an idea that would explain the references to both the Christian Brothers and the White Fathers. As stated by others above, the Christian Brothers did run schools. The White Fathers did not run schools (for children) or orphanages in Canada.
The Christian Brothers opened a school in Ottawa in 1888.
It was in Lower Town which was largely populated by Irish  and French Canadians. Perhaps your gf attended that school. If he was a bright boy, perhaps the good Brothers saw a future for him in the Church. The White Fathers had training schools in Canada (there was one in Montreal) for those entering their order ( I think a sort of seminary with special training for work in African missions).
Since your gf was about 18 or 19 when he ran away, he was old enough to have been in the training school at the time.

Life was probably very hard in those training schools and maybe he could not take it. If he was in Montreal, it would have been easy enough to pick up a job on a ship.

Finally, I must admit that I still tend to  think that there is a good possibility that your grandfather was Canadian born and had some Native North American genes, but pictures can be deceptive and I might be wrong.

I hope you find some answers eventually.

Carmela


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