Cambridge St Paul Marriage Lookup (1861)

[webb1e]

Hello,

I'd be grateful if anyone could send me details of the marriage of Thomas CHARLES and Elizabeth EDWARDS on 3rd November 1861, at St Paul's Cambridge (from the LDS site)(Q4 1861 Cambridge 3b 1103).
I'm hoping it will show Thomas' father to be Charles and his occupation to be soldier, as I would then know I'm on the right track!

Thanks very much,

John

[bedfordshire boy]

Don't follow you! As you say, the marriage is on the LDS site where it also shows him to be 28 and his father to be Thomas Charles

David

[webb1e]

True enough, but sadly the IGI isn't always 100% accurate (any more than I am!). 
The other problem is that I haven't been able to find a Cambridge- born Thomas Charles married to an Elizabeth (other than Thomas C~ son of Charles) on the censuses. The IGI ages, 28 & 22 are closer than I would expect, given that the census age difference if generally about 14 years.
Of course, the IGI Thomas could be the son of Thomas, and the soldier who married Elizabeth but I am mistakenly thinking that he is the son of Charles Charles.
And of course I'm looking at the age of the children shown as his on the 1871 Census and (dangerously) asuming that they are his), whereas he could have married Elizabeth a widow, who brought all the children with her, but who are recorded as his on the census.
I've puzzled over this for some time, and think I may have got something wrong along the way, but I just can't see what it is! I've been unsuccessful in locating Thomas' Service Record, as I can't get a number from his Guards Regt Archivist
By the by, Charles Charles was from Stotfold, another Bedfordshire Boy!

John

[bedfordshire boy]

You've lost me completely.

The marriage in 1861 on the IGI about which you were asking shows Thomas Charles age 28 to be son of Thomas Charles, and Elizabeth Edwards age 22 daughter of Charles Edwards

In 1871 this couple aged 32 (this figure is partly obliterated and I'm not sure about it as it doesn't match up with his age at marriage nor with earlier censuses) and 30 were living with Charles Edwards 70, with Thomas being described as son in law, with a birthplace of Cherry Hinton and occupation labourer. They had two children John 9 and Herbert 1.

Is this the family you are looking for? If not can you say which census you've found your Thomas in and in which parish?

If the Charles Charles that you're referring to is the one living in Cambridge in censuses, born c 1785 at Stetford Beds (sic) then he was mentioned in a thread a while back at http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,345597.0.html

But if you check the baptism index on http://www.cfhs.org.uk/Search.html I can't see that Charles/Charley and Mary had a son Thomas at all, and they baptised their children very promptly judging by the ages given. And in any event with Thomas who married Elizabeth Edwards being born c1832 at Cherry Hinton, the son of Thomas and Sarah as shown on the IGI, he was born in the wrong parish to be a son of Charles, and doesn't appear with them in 1841.

I don't think there's a direct connection between Charles Charles of Stotfold and Thomas Charles who married Elizabeth Edwards

David

[Selina]

The full entry from the Parish Register is as follows:

St. Paul's Church
3 November 1861
CHARLES     Thomas (x) 28 bac lab of Cambridge Place son of Thomas lab
EDWARDS    Elizabeth Mary (x) 22 sp of Cambridge Place dau of Charles shoemaker
wits:  Johen [sic] EDWARDS     Ann SCARR

Selina

[bedfordshire boy]

After a lot of digging I think I may have got to the bottom of your post. You're talking about Thomas Charles 79 born Cambridge army pensioner living with his daughter Phoebe Tame in 1901? Prior to that had been living in Westminster with wife Elizabeth born Windsor?

I can find the family in 1881 and 1891 and in 1871 in Windsor barracks, where the eldest child was 9.

So I can see why you're looking at the Cambridge marriage. But everything about it is wrong. I can't see another one though. Even when Thomas' name is reversed as Charles THOMAS

I would buy the birth certificate of one of the children to get the mother's maiden name and see if you can find the marriage by searching against her name. Or might they have married overseas? All the children were born in London though. Where were the Grenadier Guards in the early 1860s?

David

[webb1e]

Selina,

Many thanks for clarifying the marriage details, I could have spent a long time going down that trail, so I'm very much obliged to you.
David,

Thomas is on the CFHS site with surname Charley rather than Charles, apart from the date all other details re parents and abode being similar to the details for Henry bapt. 1822, (Thomas in 1824). Father Charles Charles was also known as Charlie Charles on occasion.
I have found Thomas in the 1841 Census in Little Shelford HO107/0074/11 f.11 p.17; not located in 1851; in 1861 in Aldershot (age seems rather out, though unless I've read it wrong) RG9/0435 f.9 p.14; in 1871 in Windsor, RG10/1302 f.79 p.24, now married to Elizabeth. Retired from the army by 1881 he is in Westminster in 1881 and 1891 at RG11/0112 f.108 p.23 and RG12/0081 f.11 p.19, then in 1901, now a widower, in Wimbledon with daughter Phoebe married to George Tame at RG13/0659 f.61 p.25.
Back to the drawing- board on this one, I think, but at least Selina has saved me banging me head against the wrong wall!

Many thanks

John

[bedfordshire boy]

Thanks for putting me out of my misery John! Old Charles birth was actually registered as Charly and in many/most of the baptisms he's Charley Charles. I tried rversing Thomas Charles, but didn't think of Charley as his surname!

With no other likely looking marriage on Freebmd I think investing £7 in the birth cert of one of his children to get Elizabeth's maiden name is your best bet

David

[webb1e]

David,

Yes I think a certificate is the way to solve this.
Selina having kindly led me away from the Cambs connection, I've come up with an Elizabeth Hellmuth, born about 1839, Windsor (more precisely Clewer), d. of Charles & Phoebe; a Phoebe Hellmuth b. Marylebone Q4 1862, and a Thomas Charles marrying Elizabeth Hellmuth Q2 Whitechapel 1865. This seems promising, but we are of course back to a certificate to bottom it out!

John