Help! Butler Family in Clackmannankshire 1871

[snootycat]

I am really stuck on my family records for this part of the family.

I am looking at

Margaret T Butler birth either 1838 or 42!
In 1871 census she is described as the head, so no husband listed, I assume he must be dead, or run away, but I cant find a wedding record or them in any 1861 census, in either England or Scotland.
In fact I find it very difficult to find many records of this family at all, other than what I have below!

Margaret T..born in Gorbals Lanarkshire residing in 1871 in dollar Clackmannanshire ...aged 33

Children

Maggie B Butler born 1859
Thomas B Butler 1860 or 59 died 1921
James P Butler 1861
James Butler 1862...did the first one die? For several of these children the names are repeated, so maybe they are just inexact about when they were born in census records, I suspect thats the case. Perhaps she just got confused!  .

William R Butler 1864 /5 William B Butler 1864!

Harry W Butler 1866/7

Augustus A Butler. aged 3 in 1871.
That would indicate her mystery husband would have died or absconded around  1867 ish

I cant find death certificates for any of them, I cant find Margaret Ts marriage, I cant find any christening etc or birth certificates or indeed anything to say who her mysterious husband was or who their parents were......

In 1881 she is residing in Edinburgh St Cuthberts Midlothian
but in 1891 she seems to be down in Chelsea London listed as 53. After that I lose all track of her again.
It would be really helpful if I could find out about her marriage, parents or whatever for those missing ten years when she is having all those children, I am finding it much harder to find things in the Scottish records than the English ones re birth marriages and deaths etc.  So at the moment its a frustrating dead end.

Any help gratefully appreciated.
Pam

[MonicaL]

Hi Pam

Have you managed to confirm Margaret T's maiden name?

Monica 

[MonicaL]

Pam

I found the following information which may be relevant.

There is a marriage showing on Scotlands People www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk:

1866   Thomas Bryson BUTLER and Margaret Thomson Reid married in Tradeston, Glasgow City   

Children showing to them on IGI www.familysearch.org:

1. THOMAS BRYSON BUTLER  Birth: 20 DEC 1857 Hutchesontown, Glasgow
3. HENRY WALTER BUTLER Birth: 24 MAR 1866 Milton, Glasgow
2. HUGH BUTLER Birth: 07 DEC 1867 Govan, Lanark

Given the date of the marriage (1866), maybe the other birth might show under Reid (?). The marriage cert available on line will let you see ages for Thomas and Margaret and Margaret parents' names to let you try to confirm what info you have so far.

Monica

[MonicaL]

There are a number of possible deaths up to 1881 for Hugh and Augustus showing in Glasgow City which might be Margaret's children given their ages.

Monica

[snootycat]

Apologies for not acknowledging these replies. I did not get any notification for some reason.
Thank you for your kind assistance.
Since I posted this however I have made another discovery. My grandmother was also called Butler, and was born in Govan in 1891!!


This grandmother is equally elusive.
She married Albert Elisha Sheppard in Edmonton in 1910

[snootycat]

Apologies for not acknowledging these replies. I did not get any notification for some reason.

Thank you for your kind assistance.

Since I posted this however I have made another discovery. My grandmother was also called Butler, and was born in Govan in 1891!!


This grandmother is equally elusive.
She married Albert Elisha Sheppard in Edmonton in 1910.

Shown as living at 423 Wighman Rd Hornsey in the 1911 census ( someone sent me a copy)
Her children were
Ruby Violet Sheppard 1911- 1981
Ada A Sheppard 1912-
and Dorothy E Sheppard 1914 -

I continue to have problems finding details....although I don't for my fathers side.

What I was told was that my grandmother 'went funny' when my grandfather came back from the War as she thought he was dead, and that they 'had to take her away'. I never met her.
However by anybodies standard I come from a dysfunctional family with lots of secrets. I have only just discovered that my parents weren't married. For years I was told a cock and bull story!

Anyhow, I have had difficulty tracing any of my relatives after that, so I have never been able to find my grandfathers death, or my Auntie Ada's wedding ( I have a strange feeling that she married a second time and was called Denny or similar, but cant swear to it. As for my Aunt Dorothy I only saw her once and she never spoke to me at all!
It would be very interesting to find out the truth about my grandmother, I wonder whether she did 'go funny' or she left him? If so she may have gone back to Glasgow. Even if she died in an Institution there should be a death certificate.  I would love the know the truth and to try and get some records on this difficult to trace family.
I don't know if its my search technique that is lousy or just that they were not straightforward. I searched for my parents marriage for ten years before finding out they were never married!
Now my mother was not buried as Sheppard, so apparently they allowed the death certificate in her  'married ' name, I gather this settling down and pretending to be married was quite common, but it does make finding records difficult.
I will send for Margaret Vs wedding certificate to see if that helps............
I am VERY grateful for any help, its hard to trace your family when you have been denied information......
Pam

 

[snootycat]

I now have a name for Margaret Violet Butlers father ....

in 1910 it is listed as Thomas Brighton Butler a newsagent on her wedding cert!
Goodness knows how he could support his family!
I wonder if he walked out then, he was alive in 1910?? I have never heard of a travelling newsagent!
This sounds like the Thomas Bryson you mentioned...I have never heard anyone called Brighton!

[snootycat]

This is really very helpful. So far I have only been using Ancesrty.co.uk. At the moment I am struggling to access the Gedcom file. I have downloaded the driver but still cant work it out!!
I will try again tomorrow!!
Thanks
Pam

[MonicaL]

Hi Pam

This looks like a possible entry for Margaret with father Thomas and family in the 1891 census in Cavendish Square, Marylebone:

Thomas B Butter, 31, licensed victualler cellarman, b. Scotland
Charlotte, wife, 29, b. Campden, Gloucestershire
Jos. That. son, 2, b. Marybone London
Margaret V., 1, b. Campden, Gloucestershire
Sarah Bishop, lodger, 73, b. Trowbridge, Wiltshire,

RG12; Piece: 92; Folio 39; Page 71;

By 1901, the family show in Edmonton (where you have your Gran marrying in 1910) - refs RG13; Piece: 1252; Folio: 57; Page: 44. Thomas father shows as a greengrocer.

Possible marriage for Thomas and Charlotte:

Marriages 1st Qrt 1888
BUTLER    Thomas Bryson/ Griffin Charlotte         Marylebone    1a   837   

The marriage cert if the right one, might let you confirm father's details to compare what we have found on the Scottish records.

Regarding your problems on Ancestry, not sure what problems you are having. Are you trying to view images using their enhanced image viewer? If so, it doesn't work for me either! Chose the option to view on the existing viewer not the enhanced viewer download.

Monica