Robert Albert Edward German

[Chris Nilsen]

I have been doing some research for a friend recently to try to help him trace his grandfather.

We found his grandfathers birth record, which we ordered from the GRO.

It revealed this:

Herbert Samuel German. Born 8-12-1895, 74a Marlborough Rd (Old Kent Rd), London.

Father - Robert Albert Edward German - Private Detective.
Mother - Louisa Eliza German nee Goddard.

All indications are that Robert & Louisa were never married and that Herbert was born illegitimate. In fact Louisa married Henry George Burch in 1900. I have a transcription of this marriage and she is still  'Goddard - spinster'.

Louisa has been easy to trace in all census records and her birth in Norfolk. No further info on her is needed.

But I am having trouble with this Robert Albert Edward German.

I cannot seem to find him anywhere, in a census or birth record.

This birth of Herbert's is the only record I have with this surname 'German' so it is possible that it has been recorded phonetically.

I'm assuming Louisa knew Robert reasonably well as she knew his full name.

Any help to find Robert would be appreciated, either in a census or birth/death/marriage record.

Thank you.

Chris.

[jorose]

Could be the names swapped around, on freebmd:

Robert Edward Albert German, b.  Mar 1863 quarter, Croydon.
Robert Edward A. German, m. 1885 St Saviour district to either Clara (nee Roche) or Lucy (nee Douglass)
I think in 1891 he is with Clara, and his mother Charlotte, plus other family members, indexed on A**** as "Germane", if someone else can get the details for us.
I can't see him or Clara in later censuses

He may have married again, as Robert E. A. German, in 1916 in Edmonton, and died aged "57" (cut a couple of years off at some point) in the same area in 1923.

[DEVIS]

Hi,

Census 1891 RG12/358/91/25. 330 East St. St Saviour.

GERMON Robert 28  H M  Printers Cutter.    B:Croydon.
   "          Clara   25  WM                               B:  "
   "         Robert  12   Son                             B:    "
   "        Charlotte 54 Mother Wid                  B:   "
   "        Susan  Dau 18                                 B:   "
   "        Maria     "    17                                 B:  "

Devis

[DEVIS]

Is this the same ROBERT born in CROYDON

Census 1901. RG13/224/39/15. 26 Fortescue Ave?. Hackney.

GERMAIN  Robert  H M 39  Clerk Hackney Furnish Co.  B: Croydon
   "           Ellen     WM  25                                            B:Kennington
    "          Robert         11
    "          Albert          08
    "         Lilian           02
    "         Edward       11 mths

Very confusing

Devis

[jorose]

Does it really say son Robert, 12, in 1891?
Or maybe 1/2?  That would fit with the Robert aged 11 in the 1901 census. And then

Incidentally while looking at his 1916 marriage in Edmonton I noted a possible daughter to him and wife (Katherine A Webb)  - Kitty Gorman, mmn Webb born in Edmonton but in 1912.

In 1911 he might be listed as "Robert Germain" (b. "1871"!, Croydon), together with "wife" Katherine, aged 28.  Also in the same household - Alfred Walter Webb, Katherine Webb (an older couple, probably Katherine's parents), Leslie Webb (aged 1, quite probably Katherine's child, quite possibly also Robert's).

(Leslie Webb in the 1911 census may be "Leslie Robert German" who was registered in Edmonton in late 1909).

Robert seems to have been a bit of a naughty boy! Clara disappears (I can't find any death for her), probably after the birth of Albert, at some point he met Louisa and fathered Herbert, then moved on to Ellen, he ends up in Edmonton with Katherine, they have a couple of kids and then get married.

Incidentally, in the 1891 directories, a Allford May is at 74a Marlborough Road - does this name ring any bells? In the 1881 census, Alford May, news agent, his wife Jane and their children, are at 74 Marlborough Road. Louisa may have been working for them (they have a domestic servant in 1881) or have rented a room from them.

[jorose]

Children shown in 1891/1901 census might be:

Robert Patrick German,b. Jun 1890 St. Saviour district - married in 1910, living in 1911 census with wife Louisa Annie as Robert Patrick German.
Albert Thomas German, b. Dec 1892 quarter, St. Saviour - may have married in 1911 in Hendon,
Lilian Louise German, b. Sep 1898 quarter, Hackney
Edward German, b. Dec 1899 quarter, Hackney (may also be listed under the spelling Germain)
 - the younger two children are living in the 1911 census in Lambeth with their mother.

Could this be related?

The Times, Friday, Apr 10, 1908; pg. 3; Issue 38617; col E
Louisa Germain, was acquitted on an indictment for wounding Robert Germain, an inquiry agent, of Well street, Hackney, her husband. On March 12 the parties, who had not been living together for some time, met, and during a dispute and tussle the husband received a wound in the face from a hat-pin. The accused, who was said to be an industrious, hard-working woman, was discharged.

This may be the second wife, I found a marriage in 1898 in St. Saviour district for
Robert Germain, to Ellen Louisa J. Atkins.
And there is a birth for Ellen Louisa J. Atkins in 1876 which makes her fit the woman in the 1901 census.

Her son Edward may be this one who died in WWI (gives you a later address for her):
http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=357614

[DEVIS]

On the census 1901.
Albert GERMAIN`S place of birth is given as: Old Kent Rd.
Robert   "                                                       Kennington.
Lilian     "                                                        Hackney.
Edward "                                                        Homerton.

Devis

[Chris Nilsen]

Wow what an amazing response. Thanks everybody so much for your help.

Can I safely assume now that RAEG and REAG are the same person?

Does the occupation of Robert Germain in The Times of 1908 as an 'inquiry agent' match the one I am looking for as a 'private detective'?

I noticed that Robert Patrick Germain married a Louisa Annie in 1910.
I guess The Times article isn't referring to these two as they weren't married for another 2 years?

Robert does seem to have been a naughty boy doesn't he!
But there seems enough time in between Clara & Ellen to have a relationship with Louisa and father a child.

The 74a Marlborough Rd references are interesting. I have had some difficulty placing Louisa in Old Kent Rd. This would make sense for her to be working as a servant. Placing Robert there in 1892 as well really helps bring the two together I think.

Thank you so much for your help. I'll have to find REAG's father now in earlier records.

Chris.

[jorose]

Yes, although it's not something I have looked at before, "inquiry agent" (or "enquiry agent"), appears to be an old British term for a private detective.

I am guessing Louisa in 1908 was Ellen Louisa J - they were married, they may not have been living together for several years - as their last child was b. 1901 and he was with Katherine by 1910.

He seems to have changed his name just a little bit each time - he swapped his middle names with your Louisa (or she wasn't sure which way around they went), then went from German to Germain with Ellen, then swapped back to German.

Ellen and her two kids seem to have kept Germain - I think she remarried in 1917 as Ellen L. Germain (to a Mr Crowhurst) in Croydon, daughter Lilian may be the Lily L. Germain who married Thomas H Affleck or Afflick in 1918.

I think Clara's death might be in Mar 1898 in Bethnal Green district - as Clara Germain. If this is the right one, then Robert certainly didn't wait around particularly long as his marriage to Ellen was in the same quarter and then their daughter Lilian Louisa was born in the third quarter of the same year. 

Quite a rogue, wasn't he? (Loveable rogue or not, probably depends on which of the wives you asked!)