Wheatsheaf Pub Wokingham Berks

[Abiam2]

Where can I look to find out if this was the pub John and Mary Wise were running in 1841?

I have found them on the 1841 census Ho107  28  1613  20
John Wise and wife Mary living with 4 young people not obviously related (18 to 26) he has the occupation as Innkeeper.  The young people possibly bar staff and/or boarders?

On Googling I found the Wheatsheaf pub at 14/15 Market Place, Wokingham.

By 1851 HO107  1692  267  4
John is a widower aged 70 living at Thorn Street Reading and is a former brewery *** receiving parochial relief. 

I have not found his death as yet.

Any ideas, please?
Abiam

[behindthefrogs]

Is there any particular reason why you identified the Wheatsheaf as the public house that he occupied.  As he was described as an Inn Keeper I would have thought that the Rose or the Bush which were coaching inns in the Market Place was much more likely.  I see that there is also a publican identified in the 1841 census and I would have thought he was more likely to have been running the Wheatsheaf.

I have not in my brief check been able to confirm that the Wheatsheaf existed in 1840.  The Rose at that time occupied the site (now the Superdrugs shop) alongside that occupied by the Bush, which at the end of the last century was converted to a shopping arcade called Bush Walk.  In 1844 the Rose moved across the Market Place to be called the New Rose with the original being called the Old Rose.  At some point the Old Rose and the Bush merged but I am not sure when.  The story is actually a lot more complicated as it involved the rivalry between the keepers of two Inns and the various coaches which used them.

Confusingly the Rose still occupies the new site but is now called the Olde Rose.

David

[Abiam2]

Hi,
I have now found John and wife Mary in 1840 Robsons, 1841 census, 1844 Pigots, 1847 Post Office and apart from the 1841 census they are all at the Rose, Market Place.  Then the 1851 census is where it all goes wrong!
It says John was born in Aborfield and Mary in Wokingham.

'My' John Wise is on the 1851 as a widower so Mary is dead and he is living at 39 Thorn Street Reading and receiving Parochial relief.  This census gives his birth place as Hanley but I and others read it as Fawley.  Mary was born in Beenham Berkshire.

I have certain proof of his birth in Fawley with his parents and siblings.

Below is the website where I found out about the Rose.

http://deadpubs.co.uk/Berkshire/Wokingham/RoseHotel.shtml

I think I am trying a search too far!

Thank you for your help, David,

Abiam

[newburychap]

The BRO has the licensing register for Wokingham - which covers the period of interest. This lists all the alehouses and inns along with their licensees, every year.  It does not include beer houses opened after the 1830 Beer Act but it will soon tell you if your chap ran any of the alehouses/inns.

I have a print out of the 1852 entry- which shows Mary Wise as licensee of the Rose - so that's where I'd look first (though landlords did move from pub to pub in the same town, so they may have been elsewhere in 1841.

Needless to say this makes your 1851 data look a little odd ...

[Abiam2]

As you say my data does look odd!  I don't feel The Rose is 'my' John Wise although I have no actual proof that it is him on the 1851.  I wonder if he just had a beer shop rather than being a publican and the 'Innkeeper' was wishful thinking.

This is a very difficult hunt!
I have very little to go on but am trying to follow through the children of George Wise and Ann Wernham who married in Suffolk in 1768.  The children were born between 1770 and 18784 in Fawley Berkshire.

Elizabeth 1770
William     1771
James      1776
George    1778
John        1781
Lucy         1784

The only one we've managed to track down all the way is George who married in Winkfield and had six children and farmed in White Waltham. 

Lucy the youngest daughter married James Carey in Oct 1815 according to the PRs and she became a widow a month later.

Obviously this time frame is very difficult to research as it's before 1837 and by the 1841 census they could all have died.  And IGI have so little on Berkshire.  I find Berkshire records so difficult as nearly everything is held at the BRO.

Any thoughts very welcome,
Abaim

[newburychap]

As you say my data does look odd!  I don't feel The Rose is 'my' John Wise although I have no actual proof that it is him on the 1851.  I wonder if he just had a beer shop rather than being a publican and the 'Innkeeper' was wishful thinking.

Whilst I cannot say which John Wise is your John Wise, I can say that a John (aged 68) and Mary (62) Wise were running the Rose Inn, Market Place, Wokingham in 1851 - HO107/1693 f191. A daughter Mary Ann Houlton (unmarried) is also there, working as a barmaid.

A John Wise died later in 1851 (Q4 Wokingham VI 207) leaving Mary to take on the licence.

[Abiam2]

Thanks for your thoughts, Newburychap.

The main point that puts me off this being John is that it states on the '51 census that he was born in Aborfield and I know he was born in Fawley.
From the '51 census:
WISE, John   Head   Widower   M   70  1781   Former Brewer.
Receiving Parish Relief born Fawley Berkshire.

Shouldn't it say victualer or licencee rather than former brewer?  That is if he was the Innkeeper.

I hadn't found the death in '51 that you mention  - it does say in Slaters that he was still the licencee in '52.  But as that death was registered in Dec '51 probably the directories were already printed.

If I had a paid search done at Reading do you think it could give me proof that I have the right man?  Is it likely that they would have records saying where he was born or references for him?

Or should I give up on this one?
Abiam

[behindthefrogs]

It may not be relevant but in 1770 when William Wheatley leased the Old Rose he also owned "The Chair" in Down Street (later renamed Denmark Street).  At some time the Chair was renamed the Wellington Arms and was eventually in 1856 rebuilt at the entrance to the Wellington Brewery. (It is now the Sue Rider Shop by the entrance to what was the old Tescoand is now Argos and various restuarants).  There was a previous brewery called Haywards but I don't know where that was located.

I mention it because of the connection between the Rose and the brewery.

David 

 

[Abiam2]

I have now found a birth for a John Wise in Aborfield at the appropriate time so I really don't see that 'The Rose' John is the one I want.

John Wise was definitely born in Fawley.  So I am stuck with him being an Innkeeper in Market Place, according to the 1841 census and widowed in 1851 and living in Thorn Street Reading having retired from the brewery trade and receiving parish relief.

As I said before I think he was probably a Beerhouse keeper.  I need a list of Beerhouse Keepers!

Thank you, David,
Abiam