Where can I go from here?

[mahees]

Hi all,

   I have been waiting with great excitement for the 1911 census for Wales to be released, and I'm a little disappointed, and puzzled, by the census for my G Grandfather. 

In the 1891 census, Evan Griffiths is living with his wife Mary Ellen and their daughter Ellen (b 1884) (Class: RG12; Piece: 4669; Folio 7; Page 10)
In 1901 he is living with his wife and what appears to be a different daughter Charlote Mary (b 1896) for whom I can't find a birth. (Class: RG13; Piece: 5285; Folio: 29; Page: 18)

Now, I was hoping the 1911 census would help me ascertain who Charlotte Mary was, but it has just confused me further. Evan and Mary Ellen are living on their own, and for Mary Ellen it says 1 child born alive (another number is scribbled out) and 1 child still living. So how can I find out who the other child is?!

What makes this really perplexing is the family story: my Grandad (who died in 1995) was the product of Evan's second marriage after Mary Ellen had died. He was born in 1921. He believed he had lots of siblings from Evan's first marriage, my Mum thought he'd said about 13, which clearly isn't the case. But the lack of clarity from the census and the scribbled out figure on 'number of children born alive' column makes me wonder if there was more than one, and whether Mary Ellen would be the mother of all of them.

What do you think? How could I go about finding out who the child(ren) of Evan and Mary Ellen were? Isn't it strange that my Grandad believed he had lots of siblings he had never met when he actually didn't?

Thanks in anticipation
Erin 

[~Rachel~]

Hiya,

Why is it you're sure that Evan & Mary Ellen are the right line for you? Is there a possibility you're actually looking at two separate families?

Also and slightly off, there is another Welsh family in 1901 if you search for just Ellen Griffiths with parents Evan and Mary with more siblings, is there any way that info has got confused or do you have the certs?

Hope that makes sense! 

[mahees]

Hi Rachel, thanks for replying.
   Do you mean the one with Evan P Griffiths as father? It just doesn't seem to match up like the other one in terms of birth dates and places. I have Evan's birth certificate which says he was born in 1860 in Llanfihangel Esceifiog, Anglesey, Wales. I also know he lived in Bethesda most of his life, so the place of residence matches too.
The 1911 census is definitely my guy because I have his 1915 marriage certificate to my G Grandmother and the Insurance Agent profession and the address match exactly.
Also, don't you think this is weird? - in 1911 my G Grandfather was living at 32 Bryntirion with his wife, and my G Grandmother was living at 30 Bryntirion with her husband. In 1914 both my G Grandmother's husband (aged 34) and my G Grandfather's wife (aged 51) died, and in 1915 my G Grandparents got married! 
Seems mighty odd to me!
Thanks
Erin

[~Rachel~]

OK so you have:

1891 census

Bryntirion, Llanllechid, Bethesda
Evan Griffith b. 1861 at Llanllechid, Caernarvonshire. A quarryman?
Mary E Griffith b. 1864 at Llanllechid
Ellen b. 1884 at Llanllechid

1901 census

4 Carn??? Rd, Bethesda
Evan Griffiths b. 1860 at Llanfiengel, Anglesey. Slate quarryman
Mary Ellen Griffiths b. 1863 Llanllechid
Charlotte Mary Griffiths b. 1896 Llanllechid

1911 census
Living at Bryntirion again

Sorry I have to type it out to get it straight in my head otherwise I find it really difficult to compare census stuff!

I guess by 1901 Ellen would be old enough to be working somewhere, so wouldn't necessarily be living with her parents. (Although I can't find her!)

So as far as I can see these are the possibilities:
 - Charlotte could be the daughter of a friend/relative that they took in, have you traced Evan's siblings?
 - The 1901 family is not the same as the 1891 family (interesting that the addresses are similar in 1891 and 1911?)
 - Enumerator got confused!

What do you think? Do you have any other certs to confirm bits & pieces?

Also is there any way to make out the number written in the children column in 1911?

Twenty questions and not a lot of answers but hopefully we'll get there!

[mahees]

Hi Rachel,
  Yes you have all the census info right. The 1911 census says one child, contradicting my Grandad's understanding. Bryntirion seems to be the 'family street' - my Grandad also apparently lived there as a child, and my Mum knew the street name (even though she's never been to my knowledge).
the other lead I have for Ellen is from the IGI familysearch.org. There is an Ellen Griffiths born 1884 in Bethesda who apparently married a Hugh Hughes and had a child, Miriam, in late 1911 (shame it wasn't earlier in the year!) There is a tree on ancestry that seems to have this family with siblings for Miriam (and has put Evan as father - I think copied from my tree) but I've had no response from the tree owner. This Ellen died in Manchester.
I have traced Evan's siblings as far as I've been able, but haven't come accross a Charlotte, nor can I find a birth for her at all. 
I have to go make tea now, but baby permitting, I'll be back on line later this evening 
thanks for all your help
Erin

[~Rachel~]

Hmm I can only see a few options for a Charlotte Mary being born around the right time and right place, one being Charlotte Mary OWENS b. 1896 d. 1904 at Bangor. I can't see her on the 1901 census as Owens. I wonder if she could be the girl mistranscribed or whatever as Charlotte Griffiths? Birth cert could give a clue but then again might not - £7 is a lot for vague ideas! 

Have had a look back at earlier census', it looks like Evan Griffiths had quite a lot of siblings - 10 children listed on the 1871. I wonder if the story your grandfather was told was confused, and it was actually EVAN who had the 13 siblings??

WRT Ellen Griffiths - what do you think the possibility is of this in 1901? RG13, Piece 3696, Folio 116, Page 41??

Ellen Griffiths b. abt 1883 at Bethesda, Caernarvonshire

Staying with her aunt in Manchester: Annie OWEN!