pope photographer

[seabsy]

In the 1911 census   Thomas Pope senior was living at Hammersmith Workhouse and died in 1912.

[Valda]

Hi seasby

Do you actually know your great grandmother was 'abandoned'? You know on census night 1901 she was staying somewhere else and by 1911 when most girls her age were working, often away from home as servants, so was she. One census night isn't enough evidence for abandonment by her mother, but it may inidcate things were difficult for her.

Ellen gives her status on the 1901 census as a widow. She may very well have had further children but do all their birth certificates state their father was called Thomas?  Widow maybe the status Ellen gave for propriety's sake on the 1901 census if and when her marriage broke down and with the gap between Thomas Harry Pope's birth and Sarah's being so large, it may have already broken down by the time of the 1891 census and before Sarah's birth. The census information indicates that, if this is the correct Thomas Pope.

1901 census RG13 4918 folio 100
46 Queesn Street Lydney Gloucestershire/Welsh boarder
Thomas Pope 44  boarder Single Marylebone London
Henry Pope 38 boarder Single Marylebone London

1891 census RG12 4642 folio 120
152 Red House Llanaber with Barmouth  Merionethshire Wales
Thomas Pope 34 Visitor Single Photographer Marylebone London
Henry Pope 28 Visitor Single Photographer Marylebone London

Possibles for the deaths of Thomas and Henry

Deaths Dec 1906 
Pope  Henry  44  Ross  6a 317   
Pope  Thomas  49  Ross  6a 318

Interesting they both died so close together possibly at the same time since they have adjacent death registrations.


Ellen and her son Thomas may be difficult to find on the 1891 census because they may be living under a different surname from Pope.


What please does the O stand for in Thomas' junior's name? Is it Oliff?

Births Dec 1885 
Pope  Thomas Harry O     Stourbridge  6c 175


Regards


Valda

[seabsy]

Yes Sarah was a boarder and then went straight into service in Martley. Family story is that the father left and mother couldnt cope and abandoned her children. Thanks for all your help Vanda.

[Valda]

Hi seasby

Do you have a copy of Thomas' birth certificate?

Births Dec 1885 
Pope  Thomas Harry O     Stourbridge  6c 175

If his name is Oliff it tends to support the fact that there is a connection to the Marylebone Popes since they too had Oliff as a middle name, as evidenced by Amy's middle name. There is also the photographic connection. Having a copy of the marriage certificate would also help prove it was this Thomas the son of a Thomas.

It doesn't however prove that Thomas Pope was the father of the subsequent children and your Sarah. If you are living in Wollaston what you tell the registrar in more distant Stourbridge when you register the child and what is strictly the truth are two different things. There were no checks in the system and if you walked in with a wedding ring on your finger and claimed the child was the legitimate child of your marriage the registrar was not going to question it. The 1891 census gives Thomas a long way from Wollaston, if he ever went there, and also with a status of single indicating he had left the marriage (divorce would be an expensive process and beyond ordinary peoples' means at the time) which may only lasted the time it took Ellen to become pregnant and marry when working away from home. She may have returned to Wollaston to give birth to Thomas Harry O without a husband if the marriage failed very quickly.

While what is said to a registrar in further away Stourbridge can be bluffed out, what is said to the local vicar in the parish you are living in isn't so easy since baptisms will take place in the local church in front of your friends and neighbours. Have you checked church baptisms to see if the children were baptised? I believe Old Swinford is the parish covering Wollaston.

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/WOR/Oldswinford/index.html#ChurchRecords

The IGI coverage of the baptisms ceases in 1877.


Regards


Valda

[emilysiobhan]

I know this is an old post (and in completed lookups) but I am just replying to it as I have further information on this family which might be relevant to anyone that comes across it via a search (in case OP is not active still on rootschat).

From the military records of Thomas Pope who married Ellen Osborne in 1885 (detailed on military record W097-3668-096-001) he was born in Clifton, Bedfordshire (c.1853) so I believe him to be the brother of my great great grandfather Charles Henry Pope (see RG9/997 Clifton Rd, Clifton 1861 census)

His military record lists further children:
Thomas Henry ( as above)
Mary Ellen Pope (died prior to 1891)
Frederick Ephraim Pope bn 29 May 1889 in Dublin
Charles Stewart Pope and William MacKenzie Pope bn 15 Jan 1891 in Dublin

I haven't been able to follow the family very well other than the 1901/1911 census details given above, probably because they must have moved around a lot (and been out of the country for the 1891 census at least). I don't know how the photography profession listed on Sarah Pope's birth cert fits in with the military career of Thomas unless he took it up after retiring from the army.

With best regards,
Emily