Pen y Clawdd, Chirk

[Gadget]

Hi


Found it on the old 1879 OS  map on www.old-maps.co.uk  Mine was slightly out so will remove it and replace with a better one!

Enter Whitehurst and then select Bryn yr Eos and pan up a bit and zoom in. It's in the dip to the west of Pentre itself - between Pentre and the Viaduct.


Gadget

added - my new sketch map - not so many colours now 

[Gadget]

I'm not sure that the 1879 map has put Bryn yr Eos in the correct place - just been doing some more reading and this puts it where I always thought it was - in the diagonal between Whitehurst and Pentre.

I think the farm would be located where I've put the arrow on this modern map:

Click for Map


Although the 1879 0ne seems to suggest it was the Pentre side of the viaduct.   

there is no mention in Hurdsman of the farm itself although he refrs to two of the other main farms in the area:

The (back road to avoid the toll gates) ran through Bryn yr Eos, continued across Pentre Farm, past the old Sun Inn at Pentre itself, joining the modern road near the war memorial. .....On the northern outskirts of modern Pentre, to the east of the road, lies Ty Maen, one odf the oldest farmhouses in the area. In the 17th century this farm was held by Joseph Rogers, son of John Rogers, who had held it before him, paying a rent of £6.9s a year for his tenement. The farm, of roughly 60 acres, remained in the hands of the Rogers family until the 19th century (Hurdsman, 206)


My only other thought is that the farmhosue  was knocked down when the viaduct was built in 1846-1848.


I'll ahve a look if it's there in the 1851. If it's not, I think this is probably what happened to it.


Gadget

[Gadget]

Penyclawdd farm looks as if it's still there in 1851

HO107/1993 F 792 P 12.

It's enumerated after Newbridge and looks as if the route was Pentre - Newbridge - Penyclawdd frm - Offa Cottages and back to Plas Offa which is just beyond the road junction on the Llangollen Road.

A John Heylin, 59, farmer of 21 1/2 acres, b. Chirk was there with his family


Gadget

[Rol]

Gadget, that's all fantastic stuff.  I have only just come back onto the site,  so must have a good stare at what you've put up and compare it with the screen shots I took from Old-maps before starting this thread.

How did you make that splendid schematic plan -- have you got some sort of designer's digital tablet,  or is it something that others too can safely "try at home"?!


Rol

[Gadget]

I do a lot of photo work,  Rol, so have Photoshop and lots of gizmos and digital gadget 

All my own work!


Maybe I'll copyright it  (only joking)


Gadget

[Rol]

All sounds a bit "advanced" for me -- still a bit of a quill-pen man at heart.  Anyway,  it definitely entitles you to a very smug smile and at least three pairs of dark glasses!


R

Moderator comment: some posts about the location of this property, made by more than one Rootschatter, have been removed, as they contravened the terms of use of the site.  The factual content can be made available to the OP, who is aware of the reason for this action.  Please be nice.  Any irrelevant discussion of this action will be removed.

[Gadget]

Mahler has no ref to Penyclawdd farm nor is there anything in the Parish records. To my knowledge, Mahler and Hurdsman are the only books on the parish.

We know that it is on the 1879 map but not on the 1899/1900 one.

The farm is not mentioned on either the 1881 or 1891 censuses so it looks as if whatever caused it to be demolished/removed happened after  the survey for the 1879 map and before the 1881 census. In 1891 census  (ED 13) there is a house called PentreClawdd just before Pentre village proper -  but it is not a farm. Offa cottages are enumerated just before Plas Offa and the houses on the south of the Llangollen road..

About the only way of trying to solve the ownership puzzle is probably to look at the  tithe maps and apportionments and any deeds.  These, I believe,  are held at  Denbighshire CC Archives in Ruthin.  The staff there are very helpful, so it might be worth contacting them*

As you've already found, there are so many refs to Penyclawdd at the Nat Library, that going through them looking for mention of the  farm is a formidable task!


Gadget

*when I've phoned them for info, they have only charged for photcopying and P & P

[Rol]

Excellent,  Gadget.  Thank you for that -- and very glad to come onto RootsChat and see you back in action on this problem.  I think that is a sound summary of where we had come out on the substance;  and  checking the tithe map and apportionment schedule does seem to be the key next step.

With that in mind,  I renew my on-the-off-chance lookup request,  should there be one of the proverbial Kind Souls planning a visit to Ruthin or Aberystwyth soon.  The informed researcher's eye may be the ideal (context does sometimes yield surprises);  but if no one turns out to be passing that way in the near future,  I certainly agree that a photocopy order ought to be a good alternative way forward.

It is very interesting that the house seems to have been at the least unoccupied for both the 1881 and 1891 censuses.  So despite its OS appearance in 1879,  there is a chance that it was already on the way to becoming ruinous by 1881,  if not necessarily demolished completely until a little later (though certainly by 1899/00).

All other thoughts on how to discover more about Pen y Clawdd and its ownership in the 18th and 19th centuries remain most welcome.


Rol

[Gadget]

What is interesting is that there is no 'unoccupied' against it in the 1881, as is normal for vacant houses.

There doesn't seem to be anyone here who does regular visits to the Ruthin archives but I've  made inquiries to see if Hawarden might hold anything (there seems to have been  some records duplication when Clwyd came into existance). Also, local newspapers might have  reports. The Local Studies Library in Oswestry and the A.N.Palmer Centre in Wexham do have these. I know that the Oswestry Library has a very good index of local newspapers (covering the Chirkarea)  and the librarian is very approachable.