Pen y Clawdd, Chirk

[Rol]

Many thanks for that extra info,  Gadget.  Good thought about the Notitiae,  which I shall check,  just in case.  Pity about Hurdsman -- but good news that you have the Mahler book too.

In terms of finding the Hughes family at Pen y Clawdd via the censuses,  I think it is a lost cause -- if it is indeed correct that they owned (or still owned) it,  the farm was almost certainly let to a tenant,  because they lived in England.  The contention is that they descended from a younger son of Gwerclas (near Corwen),  one Daniel Hughes -- who is said to have married Catherine Wynne,  heiress of Pen y Clawdd.

The mid-19th c. John Hughes was a barrister brought up near Northampton and a big genealogy enthusiast.  Athough I have not seen it,  I suspect that he was the writer of a pedigree of which a copy has apparently been deposited at Ruthin RO:  link to RO description.  I think he managed to have a version of this included in an addendum to a mid-19th c. edition of Burke's LG.  There is also a rather grandiloquent yet wobbly Wikipedia piece about the family here.


Rol



P.S.  Jo,  thanks for that ref.;  I really have very little idea which Wynne family might be involved here -- as Gadget says,  there were quite a few of them about,  even if they are less of a challenge than Jones or Roberts!  When I saw the "gatekeeper" ref,  my first guesses were either a toll-gate keeper or (given its proximity) Chirk Castle.

[On refreshing the screen I see that Gadget has made the toll-gate point.]

[Gadget]

I was thinking of the parish records rather than censuses, Rol, but it looks as if none of them were BMBed in the parish.

I only mentioned the censuses with reference to your query about when Penyclawdd became just the farm and not the area.


Given your last message, I'm not really sure what you need. I could give you lots of info going back to Anglo-Norman times and the history of the division and ownership of the Chirklands but it might be easier for you  to buy the Mahler book 

Gadget

[Rol]

Hi Gadget,


That last post of mine was just aimed at providing a bit more of the (alleged) background to these people and showing what sources for firm "names and dates" are -- so far -- available.  As you saw,  sadly not many.  And that,  of course,  is the problem.

Don't worry,  I had no thought of getting us tied up in the Anglo-Norman stuff!  My focus is strictly as set out in my first two posts,  i.e.  can anyone with Chirk expertise point me at evidence that could remove my growing scepticism about the supposed ownership of Peny Clawdd by a line of Hugheses in the 18th c. and early 19th c.  Of course,  it is always tough to prove a negative,  so the challenge was and is to uncover positive facts about the farm's owner-occupiers during those years.  So far,  I have found that far from easy -- especially as my local knowledge of Chirk is pretty feeble,  at least when compared with yours.

I have now tried the Notitiae;  but as you probably thought too,  there is nothing very conclusive there -- the only Hughes or Wynne candidates in Pen y Clawdd township being the William Pugh and wife with a 12 year old child,  a household that one cannot dismiss,  though it does look on the small side.  A pity that the clergyman at Chirk did not bother to name householders' wives,  in contrast with some of his more industrious colleagues elsewhere.

Thanks for checking the PRs.  The absence of any Hugheses who look connected to Pen y Clawdd just sows further doubts about the claims being made;  yet without more hard facts I remain reluctant to conclude that John Hughes or his immediate family indulged in wholesale fabrication.  A real puzzle.  (BTW,  the mention of the Pen y Clawdd at Llanasa in the Wikipedia article has not to my knowledge been made elsewhere,  and it disagrees with John Hughes's own assertions . . . more fog.)

Although by no means unheard of,  it is also relatively rare for a large farmhouse (rather than say an ag labs' cottage or a smallholding) to disappear without any apparent record of exactly when or why.  Probably the land had been absorbed into another farm -- as happens pretty frequently -- and then the buildings failed to let or sell and became seriously dilapidated.  But it would be good to know more.  Perhaps there is still some local "folk memory" about it.

Much appreciate the trouble you have been taking with this.


Rol

[Jo Harding]

Hello Rol,

There is a Chirk Local History Society which might be able to assist with your query. The link is http://www.chirk.org/history.html

I cannot see an E-Mail address but they give a telephone number for contact.

In the event they are unable to help, they may know where you can obtain this information.

Jo

[Gadget]

Hi  Rol and Jo

I think that Jo has misunderstood my background . I was born in Chirk and lived there for many years. Until my Mother died in 1999, I was up there regularly. Many of my cousins live there. I still visit every couple of years.

My parents were very active members of the Church and were very deeply involved in a local history event ages ago when the vicar let them look at the parish chest. This was all recorded in my Father's diaries but these were destroyed by my Mum's home help 

The Chirk History Society's membership has some of my cousins in it and also Neville Hurdsman - who was my Dad's barber 

I'll check the local parish records for you going back to the beginning  and down to late 19th century.

I'm not sure that the farm would be known about by many of the incomers who have , to my mind, invaded the lovely village and it's  history.

Best regards


Gadget

[Gadget]

In 1841, Penyclawdd farm was occupied by:

James Lowe, 50, farmer
Mary Turner, 40, Ind
Edward Rogers, 85, Ind
Hugh Jones, 50, ag lab
John Williams, 30, ag lab
Jane Evans, 20, Female servant

None born Denbighshire.

It's in Chirk  ED 14  (Penyclawdd)

The entry is between  Brynrias (Bry yr eos)  and Pentre  - sorry Storm so I'm going  - will add the refs and more later

I'd say that this was not on Offa's Dyke though.


Gadget

[Jo Harding]

Hello Rol,

Though it doesn't deal with your query precisely, there is an interesting site on Chirk, at https://wiki.familysearch.org/en/Chirk

This includes as link to an Ordnance Survey map. I then realised that the old Ordnance Survey maps might assist with this. They would have the appropriate ones in the RO. The large scale maps identify individual farms on them.

Also, a reference to a seat of The Baron of Cymmer-yn-Edeirnion which states, " Historically until 16th century Gwerclas Castle, later Pen y Clawdd, near Chirk, Denbighshire". The link is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_gentry_family_seats

This suggests there might have been some estate at Pen y Clawdd at one time.

The Wikipaedia heading is "Welsh Nobility Family Seats" in case you have a problem with the link.

Jo

[Gadget]

That was quite a little storm  

To continue:

Ref is HO107/1399 Bk 4 F 9  P 1

Looking at the entries, the enumerator  seemed to have walked from Castle Gardens (Whitehurst) down to  Brynrias and then to Pentre.  So, to me this looks as if ithe farm is on the east of Offa's Dyke.

I've roughed out a sketch map of my understanding of the locations and the enumerators route in 1841

To be replaced  - see below

The black lines are the roads, the red for the approx line of Offa's Dyke, the green is  the probable enumerators route, the blue ellipse where I think the farm seems to have been located and the purple ellipse where I/we thought it might be. I've showed in purple the route if the farm was adjacent to OD.


Gadget

[Gadget]

Jo

See my previous posts.   I'm using the various local history sources that trace the estate from 1200 - to present day.

The Nat Library records, in many documents,  the transfer of various lands in Penyclawdd fom the Mydddletons to the Edwards and Lloyd family.

Rol is interested in the 18th and early 19th century ownership of Penyclawdd farm itself.


Gadget