Ellen Gaites; One of Yours, or One of Ours?

[Steve G]

 UK Incoming Passenger Lists show Ellen Gaites, born abt.1880, arriving at Liverpool from Montreal via Quebec in May 1899.

 Scary thing is, she's one of mine and was until 1889.

I asked about how best to ask about this, on General Immigration. That led me to various shipping lists. But it appears what I need to know is missed by a single year 

 So, I've slept on it and now figure there's one last, vague hope: Is there any way anyone could please check a Canadian Census or something for the decade 1889 - 1899 and see if Ellen Gaites is on it. And if it says she's one of yours, or my one, passing through?

 Thank you.

[AMBLY]

Hi

You can search the 1891 Canada here:
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/census-1891/index-e.html

Your one up to 1889? What happened then?
Is she in the English Census 1901?

Cheers
AMBLY

[Steve G]

  Excellent! Cheers, Ambly. I'll get to work on that presently. Just have to clear my desk for the day.

 What happened? It's weird. I have the lot of them, pretty much chapter and verse. She's born and showing as still around in 1889. Then she vanishes. Of course, becoming a nineteen year old in the intervening decade means she may well have got married, thus becoming " Ellen Smith " and I'm simply yet to find the marriage?

 Or she equally might have slipped off to Canada and I've just caught her sneaking back. Which, of course, leads to questions about the rest of her family. Only, I discovered all this at the end of a Very long shift ..... ye know what it's like; Brain closing down as ye try to clutch at one last lead.

 I'm just tidying some things up right now. Then, when my time's my own again and I can concentrate and switch pages, I'll come back to this and work her fully. Let ye know how it pans out.

 My gut says it's my girl. My Head asks; 'What in blazes was she up to?!' 

Thanks for the lead. I'm eager to get amongst that 
 

[AMBLY]

Hi STeve

Um....is she the one who was in Alverstoke 1881, daughter of Frederick (a Royal Marine) & Sarah?
If so, then she was in England on 5 April 1891, as "Nellie" in Portsea (wuth her father and siblings).

The 1891 Canadian Census was taken 6 April.

If she is yours, she would have had to have left England between 5 Apr 1891.

If this is you Ellen in the 1881 and 1891, perhaps she had a sibling who went to Canada and she went over for a visit? Any unaccounted for siblings in the English Census?

Cheers 
AMBLY

[Steve G]

Blimey!  Now I'm looking back at them, with this 'possibility' in mind, things are getting scary!

 Yes! As it happens, half the damn family drops off the radar with the 1881 Census! A whole bunch of kids just vanish!

 Ye know what it's like; Find that sort of thing. Work it to the bone. Not on 1901. No trace of them dead. Ye rub ye chin and go look at a branch ye can make some headway with. Promising to come back to these awkward ones later.

 And I've come back. And now it's all going a bit 'Twilight Zone'!

Dear god; could they have all shipped out to Canada??? Wow! What a concept!

 I'm thinking Fred, the Marine, must surely be the catalyst in all this. Ten year window. I wonder what he was up to in that slot? Canada was British territory in those days, wasn't it? Blimey! It's starting to look real, isn't it? What if he got posted over there, for a long stint, and brought the family over?

 Oh, wow! This is getting interesting!  I'm off to dig into Royal Marines / Canada / 1889 ~ 1899.

 Thanks for some brilliant and thought provoking in put!
 

[Steve G]

Bugger! I've just blown this idea clean out of the water, Ambly.

 Cutting a long search short? Fred Gaites was on HMS Asia, in Portsmouth, in 1881. At that point in time, Asia was a wreck ~ as were the blokes on board her! Picking their noses, playing cards and just sitting out the last days of their service. By the 1881 England Census, our Fred's back to his Hawking.

 So, what ever (Possibly) took Ellen ~ perhaps others of her siblings? ~to Canada? It certainly wasn't Fred. The horse would've drowned, trying to pull the cart there!

 Still, it was fun and educational, while it lasted. And I'm still left with the Canadian possibility to formulate my next strategy on.

 Never Give Up! 

[AMBLY]

Hi Steve

In the years intervening Census appearances, it's sometimes quite surprising what the family members of our trees get up to , or get to! It certainley wasn't unusual for a member of any family (often of humble origins) to decide to up and try their fortunes  whether it be US, Canada, Australasia.....and often you will find them following an industry. for eg Mills and Mining in Philadelphia, or taking up government incentives, for eg:  to go Farming in Canada - just to name a couple !

And once one member of a family has made the journey it was not uncommon for other family members, sometimes a whole generation of siblings to follow later either to immigrate or just on a visit. Often these people had modest incomes, so it wasn't just a priviledge of the wealthy. Not unheard of for eldery parent(s) in their dotage when we might think they'd be sat in the parlour with a tea (or a cider, depending on if the parlour was licensed  ), instead upping sticks and immigrating to and eventually being buried in, a new land.

Also quite common, to find those who have immigrated, to be seen making a trip back to the Old Land, to visit family (who may be elderly parents, bereaved siblings, married children who stayed in UK) - often you might see this return visit  home in the traveller's later years.

So, I'm taking it your Ellen - the one you wonder is the one coming back into the UK in 1899 -  IS  the one who is on the 1881 Census, as born in Alverstoke (according to the 1881 Alverstoke Census) and born in Gosport (according to the 1891 Portsea Census)....and you do mention her being in Portsea in 1891
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,392121.0.html

I know you already have various census reports - but here it is for reference:

1871: Nr 12 - Village of Forton , Alverstoke
Head: Sarah GATES 35,  Royal Marine's Wife, b Gosport
Son Frederick C? GATES, 5, b Newtown Hants
Son: John T? (J?) GATES, 2, b Newtown Hants
Son: William GATES  3 mths b Forton Hants
(surrounded by Royal Marine families - was this some sort of enclave for RM families?)

1881: Village of Hardway, Alverstoke
 RG11 /  Piece: 1165 /  Folio: 25 /  Page: 15
Head: Frederick GATES 43, Royal Marine, b Bath Somerset
Wife: Sarah 40, b Alverstoke
Son: Frederick  15,
Son: John  12
Son: William 10
Son: Thomas 8
Dau: Theresa H 6,
Son: James 4
Dau: Ellen 10 months
ALL children stated born Alverstoke

Fred, the Head -  has been enumerated twice in the 1881 Census -  and he was at home with the wife & kids on Census night 1881, not playing cards on the "Asia" and doing unspeakable things with his index finger.....

1881: Portsea Town - Vessel: "ASIA"
RG11 / Piece: 1149 / Folio: 69 /  Page: 13
"List of the Officers, Men, Boys, Marines and of all other Person NOT on board on the night of Sunday April 3rd 1881"
Fred. GATES, 40, Private RM LI, married, b Bath Somerset
The "Not" has been specifically written into the header of the page. Therefore this Census page is accounting, not  RM's on the Asia but rather RM's of the Asia who are ashore.

1891: Portsea St Mary, Portsmouth Hants
Head: Frederick GATES 53,Widower,  Fish Dealer, b UK
Son: Thomas 18, unm, Fish Dealer, b Gosport
Son: James 14, Fish Dealer, b Gosport
Dau: Thresa 16, b Gosport
Dau: Annie 7, b Gosport
Dau: Nellie 10, b Gosport
Where are children the following 3 sons of this family in  1891 &  1901
*   Frederick abt 25 in 1891 and abt 35 in 1901
*   John abt 22 in 1891 and abt 32 in 1901
*   William abt 20 in 1891 and abt 30 in 1901

Cheers
AMBLY

[AMBLY]

Hi Steve!

Gald you've come on - have a question.......or two!

Do you know the exact birth date of Ellen's brother - who I believe is the John Thomas GAITES born 1869, registered Alverstoke mar Qtr?

Frederick Charles GAITES, b 1866 - I see you've tagged him as the Frederick GATES on the 1891 Census is Portsmouth, married to someone the Census calls "Jossalend"? Do you know where he was in 1901?

Cheers
AMBLY

[Steve G]

  Good grief, Ambly! And I like to sit here telling myself I'm not bad at this craic?! Since getting involved with Roots Chat, so many people here and just leaving me standing ~ like you just have! Wow!

 Ok, trying to get my mental breath back ..... Yeppers, yeppers, Hot Damn!, yeppers ..... I Think?

 That's to say; Yep, I have the first two Census's sorted. The one where he's at home 'playing cards' ( ) I scanned across this evening. Just goes to show how I really should throttle back. Maybe stop trying to work people day and night, as I do. Because I do that, and skid from one lot to another. Thus I miss things like the 'NOT aboard the Asia bit.

 I was moving so fast, in my head, I just thought something like, " Hmm. Not mine. I have mine already. Must be two Fred's." End of. That's a helluvva valuable lesson or three.

 Marines Enclave? More than that; That area was pretty much Marines Village. It was a 'Married Quarters' in all but official designation. The Marines still used to ~ if I remember rightly ~ man, at least for training purposes, forts around that way. Forts with whacking great guns, set to protect a channel  of water called The Solent.

 Where are those three sons? Well, Frederick went on to become my Grand Dad. I believe I have him pretty well taped. John sounds like John Robert Gaites. He too doesn't ring any bells as a problem. William? Not sure I even have him fully papered yet. This is all straight off the top of my head, of course. I have no photographic recall of my entire ancestry.

 I'll check out on all this ~ maybe tomorrow. Only, I'm a fast learner. I'm fried now. Probably have been for hours since. Time to surf the fora and pick my ..... pass times! 

 It's her, isn't it, Ambly. You know it. I know it. I just have to prove it 

Meanwhile, I'm about to shut my books up and put aside even the POND problem I've just dug up. Out of no where I've just realised that Francis Frederick Pond also went by the name of Francis Henry! Married his wife as one. Used another on their sons BC! Now I've read ye post though, I'll get back to that tomorrow. God, my head hurts!

 PS. I'm in touch with one of my Pond rellies to this day. He emmigrated to Canada!!! 

 I'll be back!