Ellen Gaites; One of Yours, or One of Ours?

[Steve G]

  'Morning', Ambly. I've not long got up. Just finishing my first mug and smoke here. Disgusting, on so many levels, I know. But I 'work' the nights  Point being, I'm not fully charged just yet and have creatures to see to before I can settle down and concentrate.

 On a look over though? I'm gutted that I missed the point of following up on Gates, once I became aware that Theresa had got that spelling once. It's entirely possible that she may have even have learned that spelling from an Enumerator. The paper work shows that none of them were that clever with a pen. Plenty of " The Mark Of ..... " till relatively recently.

 I'm now vaguely wondering where That might lead; If we did have a branch of the family who actually learned, by rote, that they had no " I ". Entirely possible that such people could enter the populace of, eg. Canada. Blissfully unaware of the carnage they'd leave to ensue amongst Genealogists a century down the line. Scary thought.

 " Thersa " ? I have my suspicions about that one too. Enumerators and Transcribers aren't the only ones prone to a little 'corrective thinking'. It's an eternal thorn in my own side that I distinctly remember once finding a " Thirsa " listed, and 'corrected' it to 'Theresa'. When, in fact, Thirsa (God knows how exactly it was pronounced) was a relatively common name back then 

 Finally; Have ye never noticed a strong tendency for 'kids' to adopt ~ or be called by ~ a completely different 'given' name? My lot were murder for this! I have Uncles who I seriously wonder if they even Know their own names! I had a Fred who was born Thomas and a George who was born Fred! Not once in fifty odd years have I heard of them referred to by any but the name they seemingly snatched out of the air. Their real names being only recorded on their Cert's. All adds to the mine field.

 1911? I tried that, first night it became available. Got a blinding result and a gorgeous image of a bit of paper. Fantastic! Since then? All I ever got was " No Record "  I gave up bothering and have left it to sort itself out. Maybe I'll start trying again ~ this afternoon!

 Ok. Thanks again! I'll just sort these creatures out, then I'll settle down with a clear head and start plotting what we now have. I'm free and easy with the paper. I can buy up any Cert's I might need to prove linkages. Sounds like the MC for Theresa and Richard could be an interesting and useful one?

 I also found some interesting points about Ellen too. Wonder if she ever married? If not, she may have been back and forth again. Now; Where did I see that?!  Too many late nights!

[AMBLY]

Morning  Steve     it is here too......now, just after 1 am.

I notice the early Census for the family 1871, 1881 and 1891 is all spelled GATES!

I rather think the THERESA , THERSA and THRESA variants seen for her in Census is the enumerator wrestling with the arrangement that good Irish, Catholic name - possibly the H put him off    (Thirsa  was mostly  spelled as "Thirza", too.)

Poll, Dolly, Loma, Aggen and Billy are 5 sisters in my tree whose 'real' names are not even close (Mary, Emily, Sarah, Edevie, Kathleen) Their 2 brothers were Joseph & James - known lifelong to all as Mato & Buff.   Billy married Bike, whose real name was Ludwig!

The MC of Theresa and Richard would hopefully at least prove she is yours - though I'd have little doubt she isn't - and who knows which of her sibling sisters might have been a witness!

Ellen/Nelly: I think she married in 1902 and proceeded to do her part to intergrate the i back to it's rightful place:

MARRIAGE: Portsmouth Mar Qtr 1902
Ellen GATES to William BURKINSHAW
The other couple   on the page were  Sydney Charles PARVIN & Elizabeth Emila MERRICK who in 1911 are very clearly identified - they're in Portsmouth with a son.

Having trouble getting the BURKINSHAWS  in 1911 - but the following BURKINSHAW bdm in Portsmouth show promise:
BIRTH:  Elsie - Jun Qtr 1902
BIRTH: Frederick William  - Sep Qtr 1904
BIRTH: Nellie Elizabeth - Dec Qtr 1905
BIRTH: Walter Henry - Mar Qtr 1909
BIRTH: William  - Dec Qtr 1911 - mms: GAITES
DEATH: Elsie - Dec Qtr 1912 age 10
BIRTH: Edward - Jun Qtr 1914 - mms: GAITES

Cheers
AMBLY

[AMBLY]

Hah, Got them in 1911 Index: Search for:

Surname BUCKINSHAW - Portsmouth, Hampshire
Elizabeth 54
William 31
Nellie 31
Elsie 8
Frederick 6
Nellie 5
Walter 2

(Eliabeth is not necessaily in same house, just came up with "All Buckinshaw in Portmouth" query. She could be William snr's mother, either way).

Looks like another piece of paper to add to the pile 

Cheers
AMBLY

[Steve G]

One in the morning?   That explains a lot. It's 14:10 here. So I'm as alert as I'll ever be today. By the time we meet again 'tonight', my eyes will be strained and You'll be bouncing around.

 Anyway; Right. What I'll do, I'll concentrate on digging out the ref's on the 'new' Gaites's doings that we now have. I'll put the MC's on my latest list and shall send that order in presently.

 That should cement the obvious relationships we now have and will cut me loose from worrying about (or being distracted and misled by) those people.

 Then I can continue to freely wreck my head over " The Disappeared ".

Who have we, in that category? Looks like:  Fred C. We can't rule out that he took his wife back home, to Holland, of course.

 John Thomas? Hell, with a name like That? I'd want to disappear!  

William? I'll retrace that suspected marriage and get onto it. Might even have it here. I have Williams in both Gaites and Curtis. They all give me the willies, for some unaccountable reason. Murder to keep tabs on.

James? God knows. Maybe the BC will throw something up? Can't see what though.

 Annie? Well, I guess she's good enough excuse for Me to venture back into 1911 and start digging.

 Frankly? 'Nice' and enlightening as it is; I don't like to appear ready to sit back and applaud as someone else does all the donkey work for me. We'll all try and help someone get through a blind. But I don't feel right allowing people to spoon feed me what I should be getting on and doing for myself. It takes up their valuable time and could make me seem lazy.

 Heh! Saying that? I equally recognise how hunting for others can be a welcome break from our own nightmares, and just as gratifying. Only, if anyone fancies a damn good challenge? I have people I've clawed at my own face over for years on end now! No one need be bored or at a loose end while I'm around!  


 Anyway, Ambly; As I'm talking to you this minute, I simply must make a giant digression to something I'm gagging to 'get out there' ..... The British Library have just released a load of news papers, from 1800-1900. Found that announced on here. And, last night, I accessed them. Wow!

I have a William Curtis, laterly known to be a Water Cress Hawker, in Portsmouth. And, guess what? Some poor guy threw himself under a train there. And I have the report in the paper of the day. It says how " William Curtis, a Hawker " states how; " I saw the guy, leaning on the railway fence. He looked out of sorts to me then ..... I was just on my way over to the farm there; To gather some Water Cress. " !  

 Absolutely Brilliant! I mean, all the Cert's in the GRO can't give ye insights like that!


 Now I'd best get on and sort through ye leads there. I'll list what comes of it all. Thanks again  

[AMBLY]

You're welcome Steve   

Wish we could have found if it was Ellen coming back into the UK - but still a few more siblings for you to chase that way yet if not found at home.

Sometimes we all need someone else to see what we can't quite just to get us back on a roll - me included!  I'm always so much better at finding things out for someone else's unrelated tree  than my own; with me own I suppose I often 2nd guess findings and worry myself to confusion with the ifs and buts and maybes. Whereas with someone elses, like yours rife with intrigue that keeps Rootschatters like me in clover, it's easier to have less doubt. Does that make sense - now nearly 2am, so probably not! I need my own mug and a fag to put me to bed soon, equally disgraceful habits downunder....

BTW    My own dear father, was given the fornames JTK - JT being the same as your JT - my dear sweet grandmother was quite unaware, I'm sure. Someone more  clued up must have  stepped in pretty quick - and Dad  is known as K. all his life!

Cheers
AMBLY

[AMBLY]

PS.  The Water Cress William find, is priceless! You're so right - all the BMD in the world can't beat that 

Is that a free access database, the British Library Newspapers - or a subscription one?

Cheers
AMBLY

[Steve G]

 Ambly; The papers are partially free. But, who wants to look at only the snatch of the whole picture they're giving ye?

 I find it cheap enough so's it's not a concern. What I would say though is that it's hard work ~ and can be frustrating, as well as awfully time consuming. I guess that depends on ye search terms? " Curtis Hawker " got be Bill contemplating suicidals, on his way to work. It also got me His Dad, pissed as a hand cart and causing a disturbance in a pub! 

 But, hit it with Burge ..... Hawker / William / just plain Burge? LOTS of work! And ye get tantalising stuff; Like William Burge, 14 yo. Described as " Incorrigible ". Doing some con' work and having been put in Reform School for two years. Escaping every couple of months! The kid's obviously one of Bill's rellies. The dates give that. But, how to prove that, when he was born pre '37? See?

 And down loading the stuff ye find and want isn't too straight foreward either. Plenty of clicks and crops involved.

 But, hey; For the sake of a few quid and another lost evening of high intensity brain wrecking? I'd say have a go. If nothing else, ye'll read some stuff that'll make ye eyes widen!

 It's Here.  And I was led to that via an announcement placed on Roots Chat, to give credit where it's due; Here. 

[IndisVanyar]

Hi Canada Chatters

Need some help.....   

BIRTH: Inez May GATES born 1901 Lambton Ontario
Any details on her parents from the birth record
Any other children?
Marriage of parents in Ontario?

Possibility she (Inez) crossed over to USA at some sage and is in  Erie, NY in 1920 ?

Cheers

Hi

I don't know whether this will help or muddy the waters even more

County of Lambton
Inez May Gates, date of birth January 11 1901
Father John Gates
Mother Edith Bells

Ontario, Canada Marriages, Lambton, 1898
23 Nov 1898
John Gates, age 29, Residence when married, Forest,Lucan Ont, born England, bachelor, Cooper (parents - Elizabeth Wherrell and Charles Gates)
Edith May Betts/Belts?, age 25, born Norfolk England, spinster (parents - Sarah Douty and George Betts/ Belts (- only the final t is crossed)
(Indexed as Belts but Free BMD has no Edith May Belts but does have:
Births Dec 1877
Edith May Betts Henstead 4b 189 (Henstead is in Norfolk)

Free BMD also has:
Marriages Jun 1862
Charles Gates
Elizabeth Wherrell (on same page)
Lewisham 1d 991

Regards

Nell

[Steve G]

 Nell; If I'm reading this correctly, I believe that information somewhat blows the John the Cooper theory right out of the water? Only, I have No recorded Charles Gaites in my line up 

 Brilliant work, none the less, in knocking off the false trail for us  Thanks very much for the effort.


 And now a new little development from my end (For a change!  ) I have just this hour received copies of the full Marine Service Records of 'Fred the Marine'! Rellie of ours had gone up the the National Archives and dug them out.

 It's amazing! I've only yet had a moment to glance over them. All typical, older photo copies of very old, hand written stuff. But, get this! It seems our fearsome fighting force of one, an original Royal Marine, was all of 5' 4"  Short ar*ed little sod! Probably still a handful though. The men of my line, on that side, did show a tendency toward the more stocky type. More badgers than greyhounds.

 Better yet though; His eye colour is once recorded as " Blue ". Then another judgement records them as " Gray ". I know exactly where they're coming from too. My own eyes are exactly what one might peer at and consider, before deciding about the best one can do is to describe them as " Gray Blue ".  So there ye go. My eyes have come down through generations 


 Anyway; Should the intrepid Ambly look in here? Just to let ye know, I've decided to now leave this one in abeyance until I get this latest  rash of Cert's under my belt and sorted through. I feel we may be working without the aid of fresh material which won't be too long in coming. Meanwhile, I have my work cut out in scanning and stitching in all these service records. They're mostly on huge sheets of paper and cropping, sizing and rejoining them's going to be 'fun' 

 I wonder if his dates of active, foreign service on board will throw up anything? Best get cracking! Won't know till I look!

 Cheers, all! Back later 

 Steve.