Ellen Gaites; One of Yours, or One of Ours?

[Steve G]

LMAO!  Ambly; Leave my head alone! I've been at this since noon. I was shouting at the Dogs by 16:00. Can ye imagine how shot away I am now?

 Seriously; If I try to do any more now? I'll just make mistakes. I need to go read some 'non working' fora and drink some Jameson 

 I know the guy ye mean though. One of mine alright. Married a Dutch girl. Had a little girl who, sadly, didn't last five minutes. Then ..... ye guessed it! Straight off the bloody radar!

 A pattern's emerging. Isn't it? 

[AMBLY]

Sorry Steve      don't mean to be doing your head in 

Maybe this might bring some equilibrium :

.....I think Ellen's & yr Grandad's  brother John - was John Thomas GAITES /GATES - not John Robert.
He's been enumerated in the 1871 Census as John T or John J - hard to tell, but there is a corresponding 1869 birth registration in Alverstoke of a John Thomas GAITES.

Thing is....this chap across the pond, as follows:

Canada Census 1901:
Town of Forest, Lambton County,  Ontario
Head: John GATES 32, b England Jan 17 1869, Occupation Cooper. No imm year reported
Wife: Edith GATES 28, b 12 Jul 1872, imm 1874'
Dau: Inas M GATES b 11 Jan 1901 Ontario.
District: #79, Sub District Forest, pg 6

Will try to dig something up on him

Cheers
AMBLY

[AMBLY]

Hi Canada Chatters

Need some help.....   

BIRTH: Inez May GATES born 1901 Lambton Ontario
Any details on her parents from the birth record
Any other children?
Marriage of parents in Ontario?

Possibility she (Inez) crossed over to USA at some sage and is in  Erie, NY in 1920 ?

Cheers
AMBLY

[Steve G]

  I'm back. Like the bloke in 'Josie Wells', I Had To come back .....

It's the John T/R bit? Just to let ye know; I'm a fiend for buying the Cert's. I've genuinely spent £K's on them. Paper Junkie! 

 So, I'm sat here, looking at John Thomas Gaites. 1869. Out of Fred and Sarah (formerly Pafford).

 I also have Thomas (elsewhere known as Thomas Robert) Gaites. 1873. Another of Fred and Sarah's. 'Tom Bob' I have ticked all through his long life. BMD Certs and all the Census's.

 John Thomas? Have his BC. He goes off the radar at the 1881, aged 11. No further sign of him. Doesn't seem to marry or die. *POOF!*

 They Did go to Canada, didn't they? Damned if I know how, when or why. But, with so many of them vanishing? Ellen's given the game away by trying to sneak back.

 RMLI were stationed out there. Maybe word spread of what a land it was, back in Alverstoke? Perhaps a friend of the family? Even an Uncle? Who knows ~ yet.


Oh dear god! I was about to say how I'm unhappy with the Cooper. I was going to remind ye how that's a hell of a skilled job. Takes Years to learn. Yeah; Like, how about the years between the ages of Eleven and Thirty Two?! 

 Blimey! Oh, man! This is getting GOOD! 

[AMBLY]

Hi Steve 

So I'm curious now -  what;s the date of birth  of your John Tom - is it on or about 17 Jan 1869?
There are a number of GATES families in Ontario - so yes, it could be other members of the family blazed a trail...

Cheers
AMBLY

[Steve G]

19th December. Henry Street. Stoke Rd.

[Jacquie in Canada]

There is a marriage for a John Gates and Edith May Belts in Lambton County but that John Gates was the son of Charles Gates and Elizabeth Wheville so that eliminates him.

Jacquie

[Steve G]

Thanks for that, Jacquie. I'm not sure what it might mean to Ambly. But it sounds constructive in this scheme of things 


 Now, Ambly? If ye still interested in this one? I've collated what I have about 'Fred the Marine's' kids.  Fred Gaites B. 1842 had the following. And here's what I know of them, thus far:


Frederick Charles. B. Apr-1866. Marries Jossoland in 1897. Gone.

John Thomas. B. Dec-1869. 11 in 1881. Gone.

William. B. Jan-1871. Yet to be Certificated. 10 in 1881. *Said to have* later married Lilly Tarrant. (As yet unproven).

Thomas Robert. B. Apr-1873. More papers than Murdoch. Never left the country.

Theresa Hannah.B. abt 1875. (BC in the post). 6 in 1881. GATES on that return. Gone.

James. B. abt 1877 (BC in the post). 14 in 1891. Gone.

Ellen. B. 1880. (BC in the post). 11 in 1891. Gone ~ and coming back?

Annie. B. abt 1882. (BC in the post). 9 in 1891. Vanished without a trace.


 I hope ye can appreciate that it's 01:20 as I type this. This is why I'm so useless as you kick in here. I'm all in.

 Not sure if the above is news to ye. Or if ye can do anything with it.  But, I'll be around for a bit yet, 'tonight'. If ye want a word? Post here and I'll resurface. I have this one on Watch.

 Most appreciative of ye efforts. I feel the answers are within grasp now. I'd never have even considered all this, without your help and in put 

 Steve.

[AMBLY]

Hi Steve

Ah well, always look at an elimination of a suspect as a positive negative. There are quite a number of GATES in Canada, and as always the larger the populations the more chance there is of multiple people with the same or similar names to those we seek!

So - thanks for your list, summarising where you're at with this family......and I've found Theresa and Ellen in 1901 , and  Theresa in 1911...read on 

Theresa Hannah.B. abt 1875. (BC in the post). 6 in 1881. GATES on that return. Gone.

She's on the 1891 (above,my 3rd reply)  in Portsea with her father, age 16, name spelled as Thresa GATES (sic).

There is a marriage : Sep Qtr 1895 - 2b 949, Portsea
Theresa GATES to either Edward Thomas HUGHES or Richard JOSEPH.
Which ever one didn't marry this (your?) Theresa, married Alice Maud E KINGDON.

She married Richard JOSEPH  (and I see an Edward T HUGHES in Hampshire with a wife Alice M. and a 4 yr old child)

CENSUS  Theresa post-marriage - see the relative  in the house with them 1901:

1901:  13 Staunton Street - Portsmouth
RG13 /  Piece: 995 /  Folio: 78 /  Page: 29
Head: Richard JOSEPH 26, General Labourer Gas Company, b Portsmouth
Wife: Sarah T? (H?)  JOSEPH 26, b Portsmouth
Dau: Harriet JOSEPH 6, b Portsmouth
Dau: Annie JOSEPH 4, b Portsmouth
Dau: Florrie? JOSEPH 2, b Portsmouth
Son: Richard JOSEPH 5 weeks, b Portsmouth (he died in 1902)
Sister-In-Law: Nelly YATES 21, Domestic General Servant, b Gosport

1911: You can find these people all in the same household in Portsmouth (search for all JOSEPH in Portsmouth with other person in the house named Richard JOSEPH):
Richard JOSEPH 36
Thersa (sic) JOSEPH 36
Harriet JOSEPH 17
Annie JOSEPH 15
Rose JOSEPH 13 (must be the one looks a bit like Florrie in 1901?)
Lizzie JOSEPH 8
Edith JOSEPH 6
Richard JOSEPH 4 ( named same as the wee'un who died in 1902).
John JOSEPH 2

Seems these records takers are determined to lose a "e" out of Theresa! I'm sure this is your Theresa - and that she has your Nelly "Ellen" in her house in 1901....though it's obviously not proven. As to the "Sarah" name for Theresa and the "Yates" for Nelly in the 1901 - it is to be remembered that the Census books we see are  transcription too, from the household schedule (possibly written by the JOSEPH's) to the enumerator's book (written by the enumerator) - and so subject to error - perhaps the enumerator had trouble reading their writing....? Or perhaps in the case of Theresa, she was adopting the use of her late mother's name.

FreeBMD - Portsea (to Jun 1900) &  Portsmouth (From Sep 1900)
BIRTH: Harriet Theresa JOSEPH - Dec Qtr 1894 (note : before parents actually married)
BIRTH: Annie Sarah JOSEPH - Dec Qtr 1896
BIRTH: Rosa May JOSEPH - DEc Qtr 1898
BIRTH: Richard Frederick JOSEPH - Mar Qtr 1901
DEATH: Richard Frederick JOSEPH age 1 - Dec Qtr 1902
BIRTH: Ellen Elizabeth JOSEPH - Jun Qtr 1903
BIRTH: Edith Lucy JOSEPH - Jun Qtr 1905
BIRTH: Richard JOSEPH - Sep Qtr 1907
BIRTH: John William JOSEPH - Dec Qtr 1909

And a couple more after the Census at least:
BIRTH: Doris JOSEPH - mms: GATESH (sic) - Sep Qtr 1912
BIRTH: James H JOSEPH - mms: GATES - Dec Qtr 1914

and maybe this one (but he could be someone else's)
BIRTH:  Harold R JOSEPH - Jun Qtr 1911 (if so Theresa would have been about to give birth @ Census time)
DEATH: Harold R JOSEPH age 4 - Mar Qtr 1915

Cheers
AMBLY