Day trip on the Hay-Brecon railway

[Phodgetts]

The splasher on the above colour postcard does not look fully rounded to me, so I believe that it is a Southern Region  M7 push-pull 0-4-4 tank. The picture also shows that both trains look to be facing the same way, but surely the trains would be going in opposite directions. Not always guaranteed I know, but a general rule. Push pull would explain the train facing the 'wrong' way.

Lots of info here;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSWR_M7_class

One of the class has been restored at the Swanage Railway.

http://www.swanagerailway.co.uk/news378.htm

Also we have to remember that the original thread photo was taken well before 1948, so your book will be correct in no allocation of a MR 0-4-4T west of Gloucester in BR days, but we are talking about a period in time well before BR days, I believe that the original picture might well have been taken pre 1922 when the Midland Railway was swallowed up by what became the LMS.

Philip

[Geoff-E]

Yes, I'll go along with an M7.  Which begs the question - why is the picture labelled "The Brecon Train"?

[Phodgetts]

The M7's designed by Dugald Drummond were used in London & South West Railway territory whereas the Johnson 1P 0-4-4T, a different locomotive altogether was used in London & North West Railway territory. L&NWR was taken into Midland Railway ownership before it finally was swallowed up by what became the LMS.

So we have two different types of locomotive operating in two different regions.

Brecon is the region / area where the original posters ancestors lived, and in trying to find out what the loco is, we have been able to establish that it is not impossible for a Midland Railway loco to be in Brecon as the Midland Railway operated and owned the lines from Hereford to Neath and Swansea. Originally the Midland got its foot in the door on those lines because of the coal in the valleys which the Great Western Railway weren't quick enough to pick up on, so got pipped to the post by the MR as early as 1867 with the Swansea lines and 1886 for the Hay and Brecon. I had thought the loco might have been a little GWR tank but that was proved not to be the case which has lead down the road we are currently on.

Hopefully Greensleeves will come back with a picture of the buildings in the photo to prove that the picture was indeed taken in Brecon. It all hinges on that at the moment.

Here is an M7 0-4-4T;

http://www.swanagerailway.co.uk/apmw/45jul07/30053/apmw011.jpg

Here is a Johnson 0-4-4T;

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrwar_stn1410.htm

Hopefully that clarifies it so far.

Philip

[Geoff-E]

... the Johnson 1P 0-4-4T, a different locomotive altogether was used in London & North West Railway territory. L&NWR was taken into Midland Railway ownership before it finally was swallowed up by what became the LMS.
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.
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Hopefully that clarifies it so far.

To the best of my knowledge, the Johnson 0-4-4T was not used on LNWR territory and to my certain knowledge the LNWR was not taken into MR ownership.  Both came under the LMS umbrella in 1923 but were definitely separate entities before that, the LNWR being the larger company.

[Greensleeves]

Right, here we go: a couple of shots of where I think the photo was taken.  The first was taken as close as possible to where I think the original was taken, without getting myself run over!  The second is a long shot so you can see the road and the two banks.  If the chara had parked up in this area, which was adjacent to the old cattle market, the occupants would just have had to walk a few yards to the right, turn left under the railway bridge, and then right again into the station.

[Geoff-E]

Well done greensleeves

Now, the old photo doesn't show the wall - which looks about 10 feet high in your photo's.  Is the wall actually old, or can you remember it being built in recent times?

I assume we're here http://tinyurl.com/y9mjr7b

Did the railway run along the side of Alexandra Road?

[Greensleeves]

The wall is quite modern and was built about the same time as the adjacent supermarket - certainly no more than 10 years old, I should say.  And yes, the railway did run along the side of Alexandra Road.  I took the long shot from beside the little (staff) car park on the right of the aerial shown in your link, and the close-up by the little entrance roundabout.  The railway line ran across from Alexander Road to the station in Camden Road, and there was a railway bridge over Cerrigcochion Road/Free Street  at that point.  I came across a 1952 aerial photo of the site this morning, but I'm going to have to check copyright issues before I can post. 

[Geoff-E]

Looking at Brecon at http://www.old-maps.co.uk/IndexMapPage2.aspx

it seems that the Cattle Market (sited to the immediate southwest of the railway bridge) rather gets in the way of things - plus the fact that there was no road south of the railway at that point.  What do you think?

This map (found on a previous link)


shows the the southernmost track had rejoined the main line before the railway had reached the bridge, so it seems unlikely the train would have been "parked" to the west of the bridge.

Additional info: this line was closed on Sundays according to the 1922 edition of Bradshaw.

[mazi]

mazi again with my twopennorth
it has to be the same place, put the two pics up side by side and study the rooflines gable by gable ,chimney by chimney, dormer by dormer. well spotted greensleeves. For the record a well known author of books on hereford railways sugests that johnson 0-4-4tanks were much used on this line
up untill the grouping in 1948 that is.
I think we definately know where, but why. could it be military, brecon had a barracks, could it be 1926 the  general strike on their way to picket, I still think its a coach outing, the surplus passengers a greeting party maybe.
From nantyglo to brecon is not difficult for that coach, i've driven it recently no fearsome gradients that I recall.
Id bet my, sorry mazi's, first wage packet (2pounds eleven shillings and four pence) that it is brecon
congrats again Greensleeves
 mazi's other  half