*COMPLETED* Help with Cashel+Emly RC records, National Library of Ireland

[kob3203]

I'm not sure if this request would be considered a step too far! Apologies in advance if that is the case. 

My Tipperary ancestors appear to be firmly rooted in the Caher/Cashel/Clonmel area.
Post 1864 records put them definitively between Cashel and Clonmel - we have baptism records from Powerstown RC parish (just north of Clonmel), and civil birth records from Ballynattin, Tullamaine civil parish (half-way between Cashel and Clonmel). Unfortunately the trail runs cold in 1864. However, I can infer from post 1864 records that there were Brown(e) and Fannin(g) families in the Cashel/Clonmel area before 1864.

I found an RC parish map of Tipperary (South) here http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/browse/counties/rcmaps/tipperarysrc.htm and cross-referencing it with the RC parish sources at IFHF http://tipperarysouth.brsgenealogy.com/generic.php?filename=sources.tpl&selectedMenu=showdatabase I discovered that only RC parish records from the southern half of Tipperary (South) are available on-line (i.e. Templetenny, Clogheen, Ballylooby,Cahir, Ardfinnan, Newcastle, Clonmel St Mary, Powerstown, Clonmel St Peter + Paul,Gambonsfield, Ballyneale and Carrick-On-Suir). Further investigation show that all the other parishes on the map are in the RC Archdiocese of Cashel and Emly.

Since my research puts the family right on the Archdiocese boundary, my guess is that the two records we're looking for are probably in the parishes of Clerihan, New Inn + Knockgraffon, or Cashel in the Archdiocese of Cashel and Emly. The records we're after are:

• Birth/baptism of Edmund Brown(e), probably Nov/Dec 1862 (aka Edmond/Edward) to John and Ellen
• Marriage of John Brown(e) to Ellen Fannin(g) almost certainly before the birth of their son Edmund

My problem is that I'm in Asia, and the records of the RC Archdiocese of Cashel and Emly only appear to be available on microfilm at the National Library of Ireland - see here http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,418002 for how I got to this conclusion.

If any kind soul happens to be in the National Library just twiddling their thumbs  , maybe you could take a quick look-see for me?

Pete

P.S. I've already sent emails to my contacts in England, hoping that one of them may be able to take a trip to Dublin. Failing that, I can probably do it on my next visit to the UK mid-2010. So please don't think that I'm a poor helpless soul with no other options - I'm more of a penny-pincher looking for a short-cut! 

[annclare]

Pete
Will be in the NLI within the next 10 days and will do alook- up
Regards
Annclare

[kob3203]

Thanks so much Annclare,
A very kind offer indeed!
The last hints I can provide from where I am are from the NLI's RC parish register on-line catalogue:
Film number P.2501 includes:

• Cashel Parish - Baptisms Aug. 21, 1839 - Mar. 31, 1866
• Cashel Parish - Marriages Jul. 27, 1831 - Nov. 22 1880
• Clerihan Parish - Baptisms Apr. 27, 1852 - Dec. 25, 1880
• Clerihan Parish - Marriages Aug. 1, 1852 - Aug. 7, 1880

Film number P.2502 includes:

• New Inn and Knockgraffon Parish - Baptisms Apr. 3, 1847 - Dec. 22, 1880
• New Inn and Knockgraffon Parish - Marriages Jan. 8, 1835 - Oct. 2, 1880

Thanks again!
Pete

[annclare]

Pete
Finally got to NLI today. Hope you think it is worth the 137 yr wait!!
Searched Clerihan and Cashel but nothing on Browne. Tried New Inn parish records and got lucky.
Marriage 19 August 1862
John Browne & Ellen Fanning
Witnesses John Reid Catherine Hickey
John Hanly PP.
The filming of the registers was very sloppy though I suspect the original registers were quite dilipated so for some years the days were left out
Baptism 11 Feb 1863
Ed of John Browne & Ellen Fanning
Sponsors James Englis (sic) and catherine Da--y (ink faded and impossible to read)
About the Fannings I think it unlikely there is a connection. My gt grandfather William Tuohy and his two brothers married 3 Fanning sisters Mary Bridget and Amelia c. 1820's. William and Patrick lived on adjoining farms on what was originally a Fanning farm townland Grange Holycross parish a few miles west of  Thurles  in Mid Tipperary.James and Amelia lived on what was the original Tuohy farm at Rathcriddogue east of Thurles. I haven't a lot of information on the Fannings - there may have been a brother or cousin Thomas who went to US c.1830's and another relative/cousin? Bridget Fanning McGrath who left with husband and family to Louisiana c. 1848. 
Your Ellen Fanning 's family must have lived somewhere in the New Inn parish as I expect you know it was tradition for a marriage to take place in the
bride's parish.

Regards
annclare

[kob3203]

AnnClare - you're an absolute star! 
Thank you so much.

I'd say with 99% certainty that they're the ones.

Edmund stated on his military attestation that he was born "in the parish of Caher in or near the town of Caher", and the age he gave (18 years 3 months on 10th March 1881) would put his birth date in Nov/Dec 1862.
New Inn RC parish is between Caher RC parish and Cashel RC parish.
If he was born in Nov/Dec 1862, Feb 1863 seems quite late for a baptism. 2-3 months wait? Would that be normal?
But they're so close, everything else fits, and I assume they're the only matches. So, like I said, 99% certain.

So now that I have a definite starting point in the parish records, a visit to the NLI Dublin may be in order during my next trip back to the England.

No, I wasn't aware that it was traditional to marry in the bride's parish - I'm learning all the time!

And yes, it's most definitely been worth the wait. I've been pulling my hair out over this apparent brick wall for nearly two years. It's only in the past few months that we've started getting somewhere, thanks in large part to a cousin of my mother's and her research on the American connection.
There's a story that Edmund Brown was born in Regent Street (the big London one) on the site where Galeries Lafayette later stood, but that his family returned to Ireland (Cashel/Caher area) soon after his birth. This now seems unlikely (but not impossible), since John and Ellen were in Co Tipp in mid August 1862, and again in mid Feb 1863. An Irish labourer and his pregnant bride going to stay in Regent Street for a couple of months? Hmmm...
But, from my experience so far, all these stories usually have a nugget of truth somewhere. I'm now even more intrigued about this story (I've got a thread on the London board here http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,419636 to chase up part of it)

I'd also agree that there's probably no direct link between our Fanning lines at this stage. But since you mention Thurles here's a couple of links that you may or may not be aware of (the last two links are mentioned in the RootsChat topic):
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=382672
http://www.myheritage.com/site-family-tree-60027031/fanning
http://fanningknightonfamilyhistory.blogspot.com/
Although there's no Bridget, Mary, Amelia Fanning/Tuohy on the tree, I include the links because I've been in direct email contact with the blog author, and she mentioned Holycross.

Pete

[annclare]

Pete
These were the only Brown(e) records I found. Searched marriages from 1855 and then looked for baptisms. Children were usually baptised almost immediately due to the high incidence of infant mortality so it is unlikely Edward/Ed was born a few months earlier - would have been a very premature birth given the date of the marriage!! 

Thanks for the links to the Fanning blog - had seen it before but there are quite a lot of new records added that I hadn't seen.
regards
annclare

[kob3203]

Thanks again AnnClare - can you just reconfirm that you found both the baptism and marriage entry on film number P.2502? I just want to make sure of all my references.

My fellow researcher has suggested that maybe the Regent Street story is still true, and could explain the 3 month delay in the baptism. She also suggested that John and Ellen may have been working in London before the marriage. So I've rechecked a few things, and can find no civil marriage for an Ellen Fanning in London in 1862, and no feasible record for Ellen Fanning in the 1861 UK census (the only Ellen Fanning in London in the 1861 UK census is 28 years old, married with two children). There are too many John Browns to make checking worthwhile yet.

Here's what I'm now considering as a theory (and it is just a theory):

John may have been in London for several years, but Ellen may have arrived after the 1861 census. They may have known each other before, or they may have met in London.
John and Ellen may have been working together in London in late 1861/early 1862.
They may have gone back to Ireland specifically to get married, then returned to London.
Edmund may have been born in London at the end of 1862 (4 months after the church marriage, so Ellen was probably pregnant before the trip back to Ireland for the wedding).
After Edmund's birth they (or their employers) decided that it was best to return permanently to Ireland.
They would have waited until mother and child were fit to travel before returning to Ireland, hence the discrepancy between birth and baptism.

Some obvious questions that this theory poses:

• How strong was the tradition to wed in the bride's parish? Strong enough for a journey back to Ireland for that sole purpose?
• Would they have foregone a civil marriage in London? Would the UK civil registration system have allowed this?
• Would the UK civil registration system have allowed Edmund's birth not to be registered?
• If John and Ellen were working in London, how likely would their employer have been to give them time off to go to Ireland and get married?
• How long would a journey between London and Tipperary have taken? How expensive would it have been?

Can anybody throw any light on these queries? (Perhaps it's time to close this topic and start a new one?)

Pete

[annclare]

New Inn and Knockgraffon parish registers P2502
annclare

[kob3203]

Time to close this topic, with a final big thank you to annclare.
Those last few queries call for a new topic on the "Ireland - General" board...
Pete