Ida Burry born 1846 in India

[avm228]

I haven't got very far with the Hughes family - thousands of them and all with the same christian name - but I've also found in the Gore 1900 directory for Liverpool & Birkenhead an entry for Williams Wilberforce, Victualler - Myers Street. I have to wonder if that's a family business, and the sisters were Grace & Ida Williams?

The 1901 census shows (at 72 Ivy Leigh, West Derby) a 31-yr old Wilberforce Williams, Publican, b Coventry.  His wife is Haida E. Williams, 28 b Liverpool.

RG13/3500/127/45

Anna

[heywood]

Thanks Anna - isn't it strange - Haida/Ida/Ada but no connection
(don't think  ) 

[Wilbs]

The Hughes family co-incidences?

1881 census living at 16 Carnarvon Street, Kirkdale
Thomas Hughes, head, 50, Anglesea Wales, Labourer
Jane Hughes, wife, 59, Anglesea Wales
Susanna Hughes, daughter, 16, Liverpool, servant

(Susannah is probably the Catherine Susannah Hughes born Q1 1864 from FreeBMD and who went on to marry John Shackley.  In 1991 census mother Jane is a widow & living with Susannah & John Shackley in Walton )

Grace Wilberforce registered Mary's birth in June 1889 from 16 Carnarvon Street, Kirkdale.

Burial Toxteth Park Cemetery, 9 February 1890, Thomas Hughes, of 76 Warwick Street, Toxteth Park, aged 70,  (Age is 10 years out but need to check this further)

1894 Commercial directories, 76 Warwick Street, Toxteth Park, Burns, Mrs G, Laundress and Burns, John, Ships Cook

1897 Grace Wilberforce marries John William Burns and gives her address as 76 Warwick Street, Toxteth Park

In 1900, the trades listing under Laundries is for Burns, John. (76 Warwick Street)

1901 census living at 76 Warwick Street, Toxteth Park
Grace Burns, laundress, wife, married
Ida Mary Burns, daughter
Ida Wilberforce, s in law, single(This suggests to me that the house was registered in John's name, as no-one was listed as head, but I'm only guessing)

There seems to be a definite connection between the two addresses - Carnarvon & Warwick Street - and between the two families.  If I hadn't found the Hughes death in 1890, I would have just passed it off as one of those things, but why would Grace (supposedly) give birth at the Hughes property and the Hughes died at hers?

Best wishes from a very frustrated Wilbs.

[heywood]

I am sharing your frustration!!

Have you tried to find the Hughes in earlier censuses - so difficult with the name Hughes.
I can only find these people and wonder what you have?

1871 RG10; Piece: 3757; Folio: 96; Page: 5
12 Cellar Boundary St East
Thomas Hughes head 42 yrs Dock Labourer b Anglesea Beamaris
Jane Hughes wife 49 yrs  b -do-
Mary P Hughes daur 8 yrs b Liverpool
Catherine J Hughes daur  6 yrs b Liverpool
Susanah Hughes daur 17 yrs Dressmaker b Beaumaris

The children do look like Mary P and Catherine J but of course it is also the older Susanah who is a bit of a mystery. 
The age difference and place of birth points to the same Thomas and Jane but I also wonder at the age gap between the older girl, if she is a daughter, and the younger ones. Perhaps she is Thomas' or Jane's child from previous marriage 
Especially as the other Susannah turns up later.

You will guess that I was trying to find two young women with the family who may turn up later as Ida and Grace but no such luck 
I suppose they could just be acquaintances who get the same house (twice  ).

There is only that one Thomas Hughes death aged 70 yrs in Toxteth Park reg. district so you could send for the certificate to see if it gives any clues.

Just read back over your other thread/s and realise you have gone down this way before 

[Wilbs]

Oh yes, I keep ending up the same way every time.  I have flurries every couple of months to find the sisters, and pour over census records for hours following families who have no connection to me whatsoever, just in case something finally clicks.  That's how I started with Ida Burry - a christian name, age & place of birth in common.

I've followed many Hughes families over the last couple of days and the marriages between step families is staggering.  They have one common thread; they were born in Ireland in 1800-1820 and came to Liverpool via Scotland or North Wales in the mid 1800s. (Probably due to the 1844 potato famine)

I tried searching Scottish People (I think that's what the site was called) but couldn't make head nor tail of its search engine.  And, of course, you have to pay to look at all the miss-searches.  I don't mind paying for good information (my collection of unwanted certificates seems to grow daily) but it's highly frustrating to use credits on searches that pay no resemblance to your query.

I've also discovered that the Irish censuses were either lost or destroyed, so that limits that avenue.

I also heard back from the Land Registry Office this morning that they hold hardly any records before 1969.  I had hoped to get the titles for one or both of the houses to see if they were owner occupied or rented.  I know John Hughes bought lots of Toxteth from Lord Sefton in the 1830s and was responsible for the building of not only the beautiful four story terraces, but the slum courts as well.

From what I can work out, the sisters' house was demolished to make way for the (equally slum) tenements built in the 1960s and these have since been replaced by modern council developments.

Thank you for listening to all my gripes and grumbles.  As a long time "searcher" you are certainly aware of the highs and lows that go with this obsession. (Some people call it a hobby, but when you lie awake in bed at night with all the possible scenarios going through your mind, you know it's an obsession). 

I think I'll return to the other side of the family for a while to recover my strength.  Lovely group; lived for generations in Runcorn & Malpas, no scandal or mysteries, and every census lines up perfectly.  What more could we ask for.

Once again, thank you, thank you, thank you.  And if you're ever "down under" I owe you a glass (or bottle) of something rather rare and well aged - just like our families.

Wilbs

[heywood]

It's a pleasure. Sometimes, we just have to give up (for a while or longer  ).

best wishes
heywood

[LorraineW101]

1870 in Coventry, Warwickshire Death
Mar 1912 in Lancashire, United Kingdom

his father was called john h williams and mother called louisa s ellis
he had a brother called percy p williams
and percy plimmer williams had 4 children
one being my grandfather herbert francis tudor williams
herbert then had one son raymond williams

and raymond williams then had 2 children Benjamin Williams
and Lorraine Williams (me) 

infact i think wilbs is my 2nd cousin from aus lolol

[Wilbs]

Hi Lorraine

Thank you for your post.  I found your family tree on Ancestry and may I congratulate Garry for a job well done.

Looking through your family names, nothing rings a bell and there doesn't seem to be any "extra" ladies unaccounted for.  This is not to say that we aren't family - and I do hope we are - just that I can't find any proof that Wilberforce Williams is mine. 

We do have Liverpool in common, a liking for the name Wilberforce and the liquor trade, so it's certainly worth investigating further.

Thank you once again for your information and prompting me to have another go at finding the sisters.

Best wishes

Wilbs

[LorraineW101]

Hiya well, my dad and brother and other family members are in liverpool too so i really do hope you find the info out i thought for a minute u was infact my 2nd cousin garry lol but your not and gary did say someone in my family was a publican (liqour trade)?, i leave the family searching for my dad who is 60 and my 2nd cousin garry and his wife wilma, oh grandad herbert francis tudor williams was born in liverpool but there is deffinetly a similar thing here.  I am only 23 but i will speak to wilma or garry regarding this and see what they say.  Wow i do hope we are family as my family is finding so many other members.  Finding  my dads side is easy but dont have a clue about my mums side :-( speak soon and i am not sure how to send you a private message on here because i only typed in wilberforce williams into google and this site popped up i moved to Scotland way back in 2004 but apparently i have scottish relatives somewhere in inverness lol