Ann Bennett (nee Oakes) b. Wharton 1873

[oxydol]

Hi,

I'm wondering if anyone has any information about Ann Oakes, who was born (I think) in Little Donefields, Wharton, on 5th March 1873 and married William Bennett at The Primitive Methodist Chapel in Over on 23rd July 1895.

In their marriage certificate Annie is described as a school mistress and William as a book keeper for a salt union, and in the 1911 census they're living at 22 Gladstone Street, Over, William is described as a clerk and they have four daughters, Margaret, 15, Lydia, 12, Minnie, 10, and Annie, 7.

Ann (or Annie) appears in the 1881 and 1891 censuses living with her grandparents, Ralph and Lydia Oakes, in Over. I think she was illegitimate, because there's no father mentioned in her marriage certificate, and if I've got the right birth certificate for her (again, with no father's details), her mother was Mary Oakes.

The problem is, I haven't got Ralph and Lydia having a daughter called Mary and none of the Mary Oakeses I can find in the 1861 and 1871 censuses seem to have any connection with Ralph and Lydia.

So I was wondering if anyone knows anything about Annie or about her mother (whether Mary or another of Ralph and Lydia's children - Phoebe seems the most likely).

Having said that, by his will Ralph left his estate to be divided equally between all his children (including Phoebe) and his grandchild Annie, which indicates that Annie was inheriting the share that her parent would have inherited if he/she hadn't either predeceased Ralph or been cast into outer darkness for having an illegitimate child.

Also, as this is  my first post in the Cheshire section here, I'd be only too happy to make contact with anyone who's also descended from Ralph and Lydia.

Cheers, Roger Oakes

[CaroleW]

Hi

Ralph & Lydia did have a daughter called Mary but she was far too young to be Ann's mother.  In 1881 Mary A Oakes was only 12 years old

In 1871 daughter Phoebe was 15 so seems a much likelier candidate

[oxydol]

You're quite right - thanks for pointing that out! I was aware of Mary Ann's existence, but having discounted her as a possible parent of Annie's (she would only have been about four when Annie was born), I lost sight of the fact that if Annie's mother was a child of Ralph and Lydia, she couldn't have the name Mary.

That means that either I've got the wrong birth certificate (and I can't find any other likely candidates in FreeBMD, especially as the one I'm relying on is clearly that of an illegitimate child, as Ann almost certainly was), or Ann wasn't in fact Ralph and Lydia's grandchild, but either a different relation or not related at all.

And yet Ralph gave her an equal share of his estate in his will, in which he also described her as his grandchild.

The mystery deepens!

Thanks again,  Roger

[CaroleW]

I'm sure you have the right birth cert but it's a bit of a mystery re: her mother

Like yourself - I have checked back to 1851 (Ralph & Lydia only married in 1850) and there is definitely no daughter of theirs who could be Ann's mother apart from Phoebe

Lydia was nee Hanson and I wondered if she may have had an illegitimate daughter called Mary.  They are indexed as Hawton in 1841 and her mother was a widow in 1851 but there is no Mary Hanson in the household on either census

[oxydol]

I suppose it's also possible that Ann's mother gave an incorrect name when registering the birth - do you know whether that happened much in those days? I know that my great grandmother lied about her age in her marriage certificate. She was born in 1851 and in the 1861 and 1871 censuses her age was given as 10 and 19. She married my great grandfather in 1880 and gave her age as 19 (he was 20). Then in the 1881 census she said she was 22, but by 1891 she was 38!

I suppose the only other line of enquiry I can follow is to look for Ann's baptism in the parish register.

Cheers, Roger

[CaroleW]

Hi

No checks were made for identity in those days - the registrar just accepted what he was told

On her birth cert - is any address shown for the birth or for Mary

[oxydol]

I don't think they asked me for any i.d. the last time I had to register a death, about four or five years ago. What I was wondering was whether it was common for mothers of illegitimate children to give a false name as a means of reducing social stigma in some way, or for some other reason. I can't see what it would gain, but I was reading recently that lots of couples used the same address when they got married, because that somehow enabled them to save a fee. I think it might be that if they lived in different parishes and had banns read, they had to pay a fee in both parishes - something like that, anyway!

Ann's birth certificate gives the place of birth and the mother's address as Little Donefields, Wharton. I wondered if that might have been the address of the workhouse, because I know that's where a lot of illegitimate children were born, but I didn't find anything.  It's not an address I've come across in relation to Ralph and Lydia and their family, but when I was looking for Mary Oakes I did find one living in Great Donefields, the niece of the family, as I recall. But I decided that was probably just a coincidence, as I don't think the main family living at that address, although they were Oakeses, were related to Ralph and Lydia, or at least, not closely.

Cheers, Roger

[garstonite]

Hiya Roger......
Ralph Oakes married Lydia Hanson at St Wilfrids church in Davenham in 1850...you can find this on www.cheshirebmd.og.uk  ....
was Ann Oakes b 1873 registered in Winsford ?......
(my name is Allan Oakes and I can only trace my Oakes family back to Ralph Oakes b abt 1754 ...he had 3 children babtised in St Oswalds church Backford,Cheshire.....I don`t know where he was born.....if by any chance a Ralph b abt 1754 appears in your research ,please contact me)
....I will follow this thread with Interest....cheers....allan oakes

[oxydol]

Hi Allan,

I saw your thread about your ancestor Ralph when I first came to the Cheshire section here, but I don't think we have a connection.

My Ralph's parents were John Oakes (b. Wharton c.1784) and Elizabeth ? (b. Wharton c. 1782), but I haven't been able to get back any further than that.

John and Elizabeth's other sons were Samuel (c. 1825) and William (c. 1828).

Is Backford anywhere near Wharton/Over/Davenham?

Cheers, Roger