Author Topic: Why Aren't Parish Records Searchable?  (Read 21524 times)

Offline stanmapstone

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Re: Why Aren't Parish Records Searchable?
« Reply #27 on: Thursday 31 December 09 20:23 GMT (UK) »
Take it up with the Archbishops' Council,  :) they set the fees which are stated to be "Currently Payable by Law" The incumbents fee is towards the stipend.

Stan
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline dobfarm

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Re: Why Aren't Parish Records Searchable?
« Reply #28 on: Thursday 31 December 09 20:24 GMT (UK) »
In straight talk!(Yorkie Talkie) there will always be people ready to make money! which is OK if there is a logical business approach and reasonable reason for these charges by the Church-Archive-Diocese and record offices. This covers cost for admin of these repositories! but some charges are far out of scale of the ordinary persons in the streets income or knowledge of rules and regulations that only people with legal knowledge or uni degree statues understand! charges at one archive aimed at rich  overseas ancestry researchers. As I sat and listened to the staff conversing about losing their jobs because of the archive was in a financial bad way and lack of interest by the general public in ancestry. It crossed my mind they can't afford to do it!! from a far! IE;- pensioners -disabled-forced unemployed all with time on there hands and a love of ancestry. At the end of the day! its the ordinary Joe Blog who decides the next Gov and what he is prepared to pay for information or have them search for in archives or the general buyers of info.
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Any transcription of information does not identify or prove anything.
Intended as a Guide only in ancestry research.-It is up to the reader as to any Judgment of assessments of information given! to check from original sources.

In my opinion the marriage residence is not always the place of birth. Never forget Workhouse and overseers accounts records of birth

Offline Lydart

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Re: Why Aren't Parish Records Searchable?
« Reply #29 on: Thursday 31 December 09 20:51 GMT (UK) »
Take it up with the Archbishops' Council,  :) they set the fees which are stated to be "Currently Payable by Law" The incumbents fee is towards the stipend.

Stan

Thanks Stan ... maybe you know if the fees such as these are sent on to the diocese, or are legit. 'perks' to pad out the stipend (which certainly is far in excess of what a lot of people earn !) which we pay for anyway in our yearly parish share, which is getting harder and harder to find ...
Dorset/Wilts/Hants: Trowbridge Williams Sturney/Sturmey Prince Foyle/Foil Hoare Vincent Fripp/Frypp Triggle/Trygel Adams Hibige/Hibditch Riggs White Angel Cake 
C'wall/Devon/France/CANADA (Barkerville, B.C.): Pomeroy/Pomerai/Pomroy
Som'set: Clark(e) Fry
Durham: Law(e)
London: Hanham Poplett
Lancs/Cheshire/CANADA (Kelowna, B.C. & Sask): Stubbs Walmesley

WRITE LETTERS FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS TO TREASURE ... EMAILS DISAPPEAR !

Census information Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Online bearkat

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Re: Why Aren't Parish Records Searchable?
« Reply #30 on: Thursday 31 December 09 21:18 GMT (UK) »
Start hoping that you find an ancestor from the Medway Towns in Kent.  Their Church of England parish registers are available as an imagebase online.

http://cityark.medway.gov.uk/query/results/?Mode=Search&PathList=/Z4a_Medway_Ancestors

A fantastic resource.
Middx - VAUS, ROBERTS, EVERSFIELD, INMAN, STAR, HOLBECK, WYATT, BICKFORD, SMITH, REDWOOD
Hants - SMALL, HAMMERTON, GRIST, FRYER, TRODD, DAGWELL, PARKER, WOODFORD, CROUTEAR, BECK, BENDELL, KEEPING, HARDING, BULL
Kent - BAYLY, BORER, MITCHELL, PLANE, VERNON, FARRANCE, CHAPMAN, MEDHURST, LOMAX, WYATT, IDEN
Devon - TOPE, BICKFORD, FOSTER
YKS - QUIRK, McGUIRE, BENN
Nott/Derbs - SLACK
Herts - BARNES
L'pool- PLUMBE
 All UK census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Offline dobfarm

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Re: Why Aren't Parish Records Searchable?
« Reply #31 on: Thursday 31 December 09 21:36 GMT (UK) »
Hi Bear- Boy it would be great if all Ancestry wedsites were like that! this website in Lancashire is one of the best!


http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Any transcription of information does not identify or prove anything.
Intended as a Guide only in ancestry research.-It is up to the reader as to any Judgment of assessments of information given! to check from original sources.

In my opinion the marriage residence is not always the place of birth. Never forget Workhouse and overseers accounts records of birth

Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: Why Aren't Parish Records Searchable?
« Reply #32 on: Thursday 31 December 09 22:24 GMT (UK) »
Parish registers are the copyright of the present incumbent of the parish.

It is in effect a perpetual copyright as a register is the work of joint authorship.

Copyright Act 1988
4) In relation to a work of joint authorship—

(a) the reference in subsection (1) to the death of the author shall be construed —

(i) if the identity of all the authors is known, as a reference to the death of the last of them to die, and

(ii) if the identity of one or more of the authors is known and the identity of one or more others is not, as a reference to the death of the last of the authors whose identity is known; and

(b) the reference in subsection (2) to the identity of the author becoming known shall be construed as a reference to the identity of any of the authors becoming known.

The registers are also covered by database right which lasts for 15 (not 25) years form the date of the last update (again this gives perpetual right in the case of parish registers).

The only registers out of copyright/database right are those for parishes which cease to exist.
Cheers
Guy
http://anguline.co.uk/Framland/index.htm   The site that gives you facts not promises!
http://burial-inscriptions.co.uk Tombstones & Monumental Inscriptions.

As we have gained from the past, we owe the future a debt, which we pay by sharing today.

Offline acorngen

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Re: Why Aren't Parish Records Searchable?
« Reply #33 on: Friday 01 January 10 08:58 GMT (UK) »
Guy,

You are wrong again.  Names and dates are not copyright  nor can they ever be.  What would fall under copyright is the format that it is laid out in.  This is where it becomes problematic because the incumbent whilst filling in the register does not under the Copyright and patents act of 1988 own the copyright his employer and therefore the Church Synod do.
That said the work is not a lieteary source nor a work of music nor a work of drama and these are the only things covered by the 1988 act.

It is a database and as such only holds copyright for 15 years from when first allowed to be seen by a member of public.  Then you have to look at, does adding another entry make it a significant change to extend that to 15 years from that date?  The answer from my lawyer is No but he added that it would need to be tested in court.  The area of the act that causes the arguments for and against are the words "a significant change."

Then to compound it further copyright is waived by right for fair useage of any work.  No percentages have been given for what constitutes fair useage but libraries suggest no more than 10%.  They also state that where copyrighted work is used to conform to the fair usage policy the full work must be referenced in a way that any reader can find and make use of the full article etc.

Lawyers get paid to inform on all aspects of law and mine was convinced under the word of the 1988 act that Parish registers can only be databases and not a literary work.  He was also convinced that a court would also agree. 

Rob
WYATT, COX, STRATTON, all from south Derbyshire and the STS, LEI border Burns Fellows Gough Wilks from STS in particular Black Country and now heading into SOP

Offline acorngen

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Re: Why Aren't Parish Records Searchable?
« Reply #34 on: Friday 01 January 10 09:08 GMT (UK) »
And now to shift this back to Archives.

We arevbeing told that they cannot copy things because of copyright well taken from the governments own site is this update to the 1988 act

Copying by librarian or archivist of certain unpublished works
    7.—(1)  For the purposes of section 43 of the Act the conditions specified in paragraph (2) of this regulation are prescribed as the conditions which must be complied with in the circumstances in which that section applies when the librarian or, as the case may be, the archivist makes and supplies a copy of the whole or part of a literary, dramatic or musical work from a document in the library or archive to a person requiring the copy.

    (2)  The prescribed conditions are -

       (a) that no copy of the whole or part of the work shall be supplied to the person requiring the same unless -
             (i) he satisfies the librarian or archivist that he requires the copy for purposes of research or private study and will not use it for any other purpose; and
             (ii) he has delivered to the librarian or, as the case may be, the archivist a declaration in writing, in relation to that work, substantially in accordance with Form B in Schedule 2 to these Regulations and signed in the manner therein indicated;

       (b) that such person is not furnished with more than one copy of the same material; and

       (c) that such person is required to pay for the copy a sum not less than the cost (including a contribution to the general expenses of the library or archive) attributable to its production.


    (3)  Unless the librarian or archivist is aware that the signed declaration delivered to him pursuant to paragraph (2)(a)(ii) above is false in a material particular, he may rely on it as to the matter he is required to be satisfied on under paragraph (2)(a)(i) above before making or supplying the copy.

and

Copying by librarian of article or part of published work
    4.—(1)  For the purposes of sections 38 and 39 of the Act the conditions specified in paragraph (2) of this regulation are prescribed as the conditions which must be complied with when the librarian of a prescribed library makes and supplies a copy of any article in a periodical or, as the case may be, of a part of a literary, dramatic or musical work from a published edition to a person requiring the copy.

    (2)  The prescribed conditions are -

       (a) that no copy of any article or any part of a work shall be supplied to the person requiring the same unless -
             (i) he satisfies the librarian that he requires the copy for purposes of research or private study and will not use it for any other purpose; and
             (ii) he has delivered to the librarian a declaration in writing, in relation to that article or part of a work, substantially in accordance with Form A in Schedule 2 to these Regulations and signed in the manner therein indicated;

       (b) that the librarian is satisfied that the requirement of such person and that of any other person -
             (i) are not similar, that is to say, the requirements are not for copies of substantially the same article or part of a work at substantially the same time and for substantially the same purpose; and
             (ii) are not related, that is to say, he and that person do not receive instruction to which the article or part of the work is relevant at the same time and place;

       (c) that such person is not furnished -
             (i) in the case of an article, with more than one copy of the article or more than one article contained in the same issue of a periodical; or
             (ii) in the case of a part of a published work, with more than one copy of the same material or with a copy of more than a reasonable proportion of any work; and

       (d) that such person is required to pay for the copy a sum not less than the cost (including a contribution to the general expenses of the library) attributable to its production.


    (3)  Unless the librarian is aware that the signed declaration delivered to him pursuant to paragraph (2)(a)(ii) above is false in a material particular, he may rely on it as to the matter he is required to be satisfied on under paragraph (2)(a)(i) above before making or supplying the copy.
WYATT, COX, STRATTON, all from south Derbyshire and the STS, LEI border Burns Fellows Gough Wilks from STS in particular Black Country and now heading into SOP

Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: Why Aren't Parish Records Searchable?
« Reply #35 on: Friday 01 January 10 13:49 GMT (UK) »
Guy,

You are wrong again.  Names and dates are not copyright  nor can they ever be.  What would fall under copyright is the format that it is laid out in.  This is where it becomes problematic because the incumbent whilst filling in the register does not under the Copyright and patents act of 1988 own the copyright his employer and therefore the Church Synod do.
That said the work is not a lieteary source nor a work of music nor a work of drama and these are the only things covered by the 1988 act.

It is a database and as such only holds copyright for 15 years from when first allowed to be seen by a member of public.  Then you have to look at, does adding another entry make it a significant change to extend that to 15 years from that date?  The answer from my lawyer is No but he added that it would need to be tested in court.  The area of the act that causes the arguments for and against are the words "a significant change."

Then to compound it further copyright is waived by right for fair useage of any work.  No percentages have been given for what constitutes fair useage but libraries suggest no more than 10%.  They also state that where copyrighted work is used to conform to the fair usage policy the full work must be referenced in a way that any reader can find and make use of the full article etc.

Lawyers get paid to inform on all aspects of law and mine was convinced under the word of the 1988 act that Parish registers can only be databases and not a literary work.  He was also convinced that a court would also agree. 

Rob
I would advise you change your lawyer to one who understands UK law instead of American law.
Courts have time and time again accepted the "sweat of brow" argument in the UK and in fact Europe.
The USA which drags behind UK legislation does not yet accept it.
Ask your lawyers about the court ruling in favour of British Telecom in its copyright case over the copyright of the telephone directory.
(B.T. won, I can't be bothered to look up the reference but your lawyer could find it easily).

Fair usage depends on what is considered the numb of the work it can be as little as three words or as much as 99% of the work.
Cheers
Guy
http://anguline.co.uk/Framland/index.htm   The site that gives you facts not promises!
http://burial-inscriptions.co.uk Tombstones & Monumental Inscriptions.

As we have gained from the past, we owe the future a debt, which we pay by sharing today.