The Kelman family

[Bill Pearson]

Hi!

I'm new to this site, so bear with me.  My late wife Sheila was a Kelman before marriage.  I have the wedding certificates of my late father-in-law Thomas Kelman who married Annie Meek in Liverpool in 1937 and I also have the wedding certificate of his father George Kelman who married Elsie Allen in Liverpool in 1909.

Now on George's wedding certificate, it states he was 23 at the time of his marriage and that he was born in Scotland and that's it.  The only other clue I have is that George's father James was a witness at his son's wedding and his occupation at that time was as a "joiner".  I have been in touch with the Scottish Records office and
there are a lot of George Kelmans who were born in Scotland in about 1886/7. How do I narrow down the search.

The only living relative of that age and she is now 93 remembers George being a witness at her own wedding to George jnr in 1940, so he was still alive then, but a lot of Liverpool records were lost in a fire just after the war. She seems to recall that they came from the Inverness area, but at her age her memory might be suspect!

Where do I go from here?

Regards

Bill Pearson

[MonicaL]

Hi Bill

Welcome to RootsChat 

Have you tried looking for George and Elsie on the 1911 census. The 1911 entries can often give more information than other censuses regarding Scottish birth places.

Monica

[winston]

HI

lets just say that on that very newest census this is what is shown

George Kelman 24 Occ Sugar Refiner bn Scotland
Elsie Kelman 21 bn Lpool
Thomas Kelman 1 bn Lpool

also states they've been married for 2 and half years and only had the one child.

They were boarding with another family but I can't see any connection there to either George or his wife.

Wendy

[MonicaL]

  That's a pity that it states just Scotland. I am struggling to see a George born 1885 +/- 2yrs with a father James that fits with the information you have given on the earlier censuses. There are a couple of possibilities but the father's occupation is removed from that of a joiner/carpenter/wright etc. 

Bill, if one of the witnesses is a James Kelman, this might be a brother rather than father perhaps.

Monica

[winston]

Same here.  I  know that just because James Kelman appears as father sadly it doesn't prove he was still alive for that 1908/9 marriage of his son George. 


It's just a pity George didn't marry in Scotland - what a possilbe wealth of info you may haave got from that one cert.

Deceased was only added if it mentioned.  It wasn't a questioned that was asked.


Back to the grind stone i think..


One quick question  what address did George give on his own marriage cert?




Wendy

[MonicaL]

We could look to see whether George followed Scottish naming pattern for his children perhaps (www.halmyre.abel.co.uk/Family/naming.htm  - not always followed, or in strict order, but can often throw up clues for example regarding mother's name in this case). George and Elsie's children show on FreeBmd starting with Thomas' birth. Do you know the names of Elsie's parents?

Monica

[Bill Pearson]

Hi! Monica and Wendy,

Thanks for your imput.

I have the marriage certificate for George Kelman and Elsie Allen confirming their marriage in Liverpool in September 1909.  On that certificate, it states his father was James and that he was born in Scotland.  He states his age as 23, which would mean he was born in 1886 somewhere in Scotland.

I have invested a fair amount of cash in the Scots People site and there are quite a few
George Kelmans born around 1885/7.

The first nearest match is a George Kelman, born on June 5th 1885 aat Edinkillie in the County of Moray and his father was James Kelman (b1850) and his mother was Jessie
Kynoch (b1848).  They were married in 1873 at St. Andrews Llanbryd in the county of Elgin.They had 10 children including George.  That birth date would put George as being
24 years of age when he married, not 23!


The next possibility!

There is a George Kelman born on the 8th March 1887 at St. Andrew, Edinburgh. His father was James Kelman (a police constable at the time of his marriage) and he married a Jane Taylor on the 13th March, 1886 in Edinburgh.  This would mean this George was 22.5 years when he married.  Did he just round up his age?  I have not come across any other children of that marriage, so far!

The sear4ch continues

Billo

[winston]

HI Bill

Thanks for the extra info'.  Are you saying then that on George and Elsie's marriage cert that James (father of Groom) was noted as a Police man?

Wendy

[MonicaL]

I think Bill you said that from the marriage cert that father James was a joiner. That is the problem that Wendy and I have been having trying to find him at home with a father James who was a joiner by trade.

There are a few entries that could be the right family as you have found through the birth certs. The problem is trying to match the father to the occupation showing on George's marriage entry.

A joiner (or carpenter/wright etc). tends to be a lifetime trade where an apprenticeship was normally done. It does not preclude someone in later years having acquired the trade though. But nothing at present is showing on the censuses up to 1901 in Scotland which is a pity.

It may be that the 1911 census for Scotland will help but until it comes out in Spring 2011 not sure how we can check further for occupations unfortunately.

Just one thing. Don't worry too much about ages being precise. They very often weren't  It is quite normal for ages in registrations (except for the births!) and censuses to be a few years out. Recording of this type of info was much less precise in those days for all sorts of reason. When searching, always worthwhile to do a minimum of +/- 2yrs.

Monica