The Kelman family

[MonicaL]

Billy, I asked this earlier. What were the names of Elsie's parents? Was father Thomas and mother?

Monica

[Bill Pearson]

Hi! Monica,

Elsie Allen's parents were Thomas Allen (b1868) in Lancashire and his mother
was Catherine (do not know maiden name) who was born in 1869.

The 1901 census shows them living at 97, Eaton Street in Toxteth Park and then at 37 Oak Street, Liverpool in 1909 at the time of Elsie's wedding to George.

Will be out of touch for a few hours now as I am off to my water colour painting classes!

Bill

[MonicaL]

Enjoy your class Bill - water colour painting seems appropriate on a horrible day like today!

I was trying to see whether the daughter Catherine showing for George and Elsie was named after George's mother or Elsie. With what you have said, it looks like it was Elsie's mother's name. Can only see one more daughter born to George and Elsie later with a not very Scottish name which doesn't help with the name of George's mother.

Monica

[Bill Pearson]

My scatter gun approach may have paid off.  I have been contacted by a Genes re-united member Karen who thinks we may possibly be related.

She has a George Kelman in her family tree who was born on the 1st June, 1885 at
Edinkille, Morayshire, one of 11 children born to James Kelman (1850-1938) who was born at Rhynie, Aberdeen and died at Dyke, Morayshire. His wife was Jessie
Kynoch (1845-1905) born at Dyke and died at Conicavel, Morayshire.  They were married in June 1873 at St. Andrews, Elgin.

Now Karen has a great deal of information on all but one of the 11 children which is George who has fallen off her radar screen.  Is he the one who gradually moved
South to Liverpool and did James come to live with him after his wife Jessie died in 1905 and then sometime later move back to Scotland?

I have to try and fill in the missing pieces between George's birth in 1885 and his next appearance as husband of Elsie Allen in 1909 and father of my late father-in-law, Thomas George Kelman, born in 1910.

We know that James (1850) was a Joiner by trade (normally associated with an apprenticeship in carpentry, but he might have just joined pipes, vehicles, etc. and thought the description of Joiner suited him better - I'm grasping at straws!)
Likewise George was a sugar refiners assistant but by the time his son Thomas got married in 1937, his occupation of the marriage certificate was listed as a "Carter"!

Fact (I hope so) or fantasy (more likely alas), so the search goes on

Bill

[MonicaL]

Struggling a bit with the 1891/1901 entries but this looks like the family before the birth of their son George:

James Kelman 30, forest labourer b. Rhynie
Jessie Kelman 32, b. Moray, Dyke
John Kelman 8 b. Moray, Alves
Elizabeth Kelman 7, b. Moray, Edinkillie
James Kelman 5 b. Moray, Edinkillie
M A H Kelman 3 b. Moray, Edinkillie
R C Kelman 1 b. Moray, Edinkillie

Address: Conicavel, Edinkillie

[MonicaL]

The family's 1891 entry family down as Helman on the transcript:

James Helman 40, forest labourer
Jessie Helman 43
Elizabeth Helman 17
Robert Helman 11
Helen Helman 9
Jessie Helman 7
George Helman 5
Alexander M Helman 3
Simon Helman 1
Katie Ann Archie 11, niece b. Nairn, Nairnshire

And in 1901 - need to find George elsewhere!:

James Kelman 50, estate labourer
Jessie Kelman 51
Helen Kelman 19
Alexander Kelman 13
Simon Kelman 11
Jane Ann Kelman 8
Elizabeth Kelman 8 months, granddaughter b. Edinkillie

Family show in Conicavel, Edinkillie throughout.

Monica 

[MonicaL]

The closest for George in 1901 (there in no other George Kelman showing as born in Edinkillie in his age range):

George Kelman, 14, cattleman, b. Edinkillie, Elginshire working at the Philip household at Craigroy, Edinkillie.

[Bill Pearson]

Hi! All

I have got that as well from Scots Record office that George Kelman was listed as a 14 year old Cattleman living with James Phillips and family at Craigroy in Edinkillie in the 1901 census.

If we have got the right person, then sometime after 1901 he moved to Liverpool.
Could even have moved to Liverpool after his mother's death in 1905 as that might have been all that was keeping him in Edinkillie. We know where he is in the 1911 census in England (married with 1 child).  Do we have to wait out the release of the 1911 Scottish Census in order to confirm or reject our findings.

Bill

[MonicaL]

It's probably now an elimination game Bill, so the 1911 Scottish census would help in this respect. The other option open to you, which I don't think is practical as I think you are not in Scotland, is a visit to a genealogy centre where you can view more 'modern' BMDs not available on line to try and find (or not find in this case!) a marriage or a death in Scotland for the George son of James and Jessie.

On a positive frame of mind  and being totally optimistic, I can see a possible connection between a forest labourer and trees and wood and cutting and joinery....

Monica