Collins family of Longfield, Desertmartin

[KIWI Susan]

Can you help me I am trying to trace my Grandfather.   His name John Collins.
His father was James Collins His mother Sarah Ann McClorg   We think he was born in Longfield, County Derry around 1867.   We have no birth date.  He came to New Zealand we think as a teenager with his father James.   He married and died in NZ.   
My uncle (now deceased) visited Ireland after the WW2 and said he had siblings that all moved to Canada.    I believe they were Presbyterians.   I would like to obtain his birth certificate if possible but am having a great deal of trouble finding him and the family.   Any info anyone could share or help with would be very much appreciated.

[aghadowey]

Welcome to Rootschat, Susan.
There are two births in IGI (International Genealogical Index at www.familysearch.org) which might pertain to your family-
1. James Alexander Collins, born 16 Dec.1865 Draperstown district (page 706 in civil register), parents- James Collins & Sarah Ann McClory
2. female born 21 June 1872 Draperstown district (page 853 in civil register), parents- James Collins & Sarah Anne McClerg

[KIWI Susan]

Thank you.   Now how do I tell which one is which.   Great grandad James Collins died and was buried in NZ.   I have just ordered a copy of his original death certificate.  We hope to find more clues.
  There are anomalies in spelling of the name McClorg between death cert and marriage cert so who knows - possibly it sounded like McClorg.   It could be very different.   We don't even have a year of birth but estimated it from his age at death.   This may not have been correct either.

Is there anyway to find out if these two traveled to NZ.  It is interesting to note John Collins married my grandmother Ella Pahl in NZ.   They had 5 daughters and 1 son.   The second to youngest daughter was named Alexandra.  I thought this was unusual but it may have been a family name.

Thank you again I am still learning to find my way around these websites.   Would John and James Collins have anything to do with Desertmartin.

Is that s farming estate.

[aghadowey]

Longfield is the name of a townland of approx. 441 acres in County Londonderry. It is in the civil parish of Desertmartin and the Poor Law Union/Registration district of Magherafelt.

Spelling of names could vary quite a bit so don't be too concerned about McClorg, McClurg, etc.

Civil registration of births started in 1864 and it's possible that your James Collins was actually born slightly earlier than 1867- also remember that the IGI is not complete and if he was born 1864 or later his birth should appear in the civil registration index (under Magherafelt registration district). However, as Collins is a fairly common surname in this area it may be difficult to tell if he is one of the births listed.
http://search.labs.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=collectionDetails&c=fs%3A1408347

At the time of the 1901 census there was a John Collins and wife Agnes living at Longfield-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Inniscairn/Longfield/1544323
Also a Stewart Collins listed as a visitor in this household-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Inniscairn/Longfield/1544322
By the 1911 census the only Collins in Longfield is a 13 year old girl named Agness but her religion is listed as Roman Catholic and she the stepdaughter of Robert Johnson whose wife's name is Mary:
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Iniscarn/Longfield/610475
Think this is young Agnes with her parents in 1901 census and they are unlikely to be related to your Collins family.
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Lough_Enagh/Cloghole/1528062

Another online resource are Wills on PRONI website (www.proni.gov.uk).
"The Will of Stewart Collins late of Longfield County Londonderry Farmer who died 9 January 1893 at same place was proved at Londonderry by John Collins of Longfield and Henry Brown of Ballygowan both said County Farmers the Executors." Mentions wife Mary Ann, son John, daughter Martha, youngest son Stewart (I love the bit about the piano he is thinking of buying). The sons John and Stewart would seem to be the 2 found in 1901 census.

[aghadowey]

Details of Stewart Collins' family from www.familysearch.org-

Stewart Collins (born c1840), son of John Collins, m.(4 June 1867 Magherafelt dist.) Mary Crosset(t), daughter of Richard.
1. John born 12 Nov.1868 Draperstown (submitted record)
2. Essie born 12 May 1870 Co.Londonderry
3. Martha born 25 Oct.1872 Draperstown dist.
4. Richard born 8 Apr.1875 Co.Londonderry
5. Stewart born 1 Feb.1879 Co.Londonderry

There's also a married for a Stewart Collins July/Sept.1879 Magherafelt district. Added- Tobermore Presbyterian Church, 31 Jul 1879, Stewart Collins, full age, widower, farmer, Longfield, John Collins, farmer, ?to Mary Ann Clark, full age, spinster...
It would seem that Mary (Crossett) Collins died around the time of Stewart's birth Feb.1879 and Stewart, Sr. remarried a short while later (not surprising with such a young family to look after)

However, even more interesting is this birth registration: Henry Stewart M'Clorg Collins Oct./Dec.1883 Ballymena registration district (Co.Antrim)

[KIWI Susan]

Hi Im back and more confused than ever.  I recieved a copy of Great Grand dads NZ death cert today.  He is buried at Atawhai in Nelson NZ.   However just when I thought I would get some follow up clues there was very little.

He died August 1913 and is listed as being 86 yrs.   Who knows if this was right. This makes his birthdate around 1827.   His occupation is listed as Farmer.   His father was listed as John Collins and his mother christian name is unknown but her maiden name was - and the writing is so terrible its hard to tell Nathenill - does that sound irish    It could be Mothenill - the handwriting is that bad.

Then I thought I'd struck gold when I saw the posting   James Collins married Sarah Anne McClorg in Largy Church in 1852.  I got quite excited about this and wrote to the Church who referred me back to the proni website and there are NO Collins's there I can find.  (This could be my bad search skills)

So where was my very elusive grandfather John Collins born beside the obvious and how do I find his birth cert.

It continually puzzles me as to why John and James came to NZ.  This means wife Sarah was either left at home or had died and Johns sister must have stayed at Longfield and possibly married or was deceased.    So somewhere there must be a record of Sarah Anne Collins (Nee  McClorg) dying and being buried and same for Collins sister or being married

John Collins had an one older sister  - she is listed on James death certificate as being 5 years older than John.   Reading the posts I wonder if John was christened John or something else.   The family seen very reticent to give out much information.

What I need to do is find enough information to locate John Collins birth cert.  This seems a very difficult task as I want to travel to the UK for a visit and by  giving my Irish parentage I may be able to stay a bit longer.  My ancestry is very mixed as I have german and polish as well as it would be lovely to have the time to visit some of the places they lived.

Someone told me hire a professional (any one got any recommendations)but I am not sure how you go about this. I did refer this info onto someone in Ireland who said they would find the birth cert but have come up empty handed.

Thanks everyone for all the interesting posts.  I rush in at the end of the day to look at them.    My Uncle visited some Irish relations during the War when he served as a bomber pilot in WW2.   I just remember the stories my mother told.   James and John came seeking gold and NZ did have a gold rush in  1860s.   I would guess they had left Ireland by 1900.
I am not sure were to from here.   

[aghadowey]

To start with, civil registration of births in Ireland started in 1864 and there are no birth certificate before that date. Church records (where they still survive) may list names of both parents (although not always mother's maiden name) or just the father's name.

Your first post on this thread said John Collins, son of James Collins & Sarah McClorg, was born c1867. From that I assumed you knew that to be true. However, the death certificate makes this fairly impossible so let's start again and see what we can find.

John Collins (grandfather) born c1867? Is he the one who had an older sister? (this is, I think, first we've heard of her) What was her name? when was she born?

You need to work back step by step so next logical bit of information needed is the name of your grandfather's parents- John? Collins and ?. Does his marriage or death certificate give you her name and/or location for John's birth? Once we have a name for John's mother we can look for the marriage in Irish records (civil registration of non-Catholic marriages started in 1845) and then see what church records might survive in the area.

[Dave MacLurg]

Susan, From my family tree:-
John Collins married Mary Witherow who was born in 1801 in Dungiven, Co. Londonderry

They had 5 children
John Collins m Sara Moreland and died in Ballymena
Stuart Collins m(1) Martha Crossit m(2) Mary Anne Clark
James Collins m 1852 Sarah Ann McClorg b 1836 (your great grandparents)
Jane Collins b 1836 m 1861 Henry brown b1830
Mary Collins b1838 d1918 m1868 William McClorg b1832 d1920 (my great grandparents)

John and Sara had 4 children Stuart, William, Hubert & Sadie

Stuart and Martha had 3 children I know of Martha, Stewart, John and according to aghadowey 2 more Essie and Richard

James and Sarah Ann had 3 children; John who went to NZ, Alexander James & Elizabeth who married William Bradley

Jane and Henry Brown had 6 children; Tom, John, Joseph, Martha, Harry,Sam most seem to have gone to Toronto, Canada

Mary and William McClorg had 5 children; Alexander (My grandfather), Anna, John
 David (from who I got much of my information), Martha (who married John Smythe and went to New Zealand where their son, Arch, died in 2004)

The 1901 Census has Sara Anne Collins (no mention of James, her husband).  living in the household of Blanche May Collins. Blanche was the wife of Alexander James Collins (your grandfather's brother) The 1911 census has Alexander at home (he was a commercial traveller in woolens) but there is no mention of Sara Ann who had, presumably, died.

1901 census has John Collins in Longfield married to Agnes.This John Collins would be the son of Stewart Collins and Martha Crossit

1901 and 1911 Census have Henry Brown and household in Ballygowan

McClorg was the spelling of my family name up until my grandfater , Alexander) and his siblings changed it to MacLurg because they thought it was the original spelling of the name when the family came from Scotland back in 1600s

[KIWI Susan]

WOw  Thank you Dave.   That is so exciting - We have an extensive family history here that traces the family from the time they arrived in NZ but beyond that no one knows.   I started by looking for my Grandads birth cert and then you find all these snippets of information and you cannot help wondering what happened and why.   This makes us cousins   Kai ora Cuz.

James and John came to NZ together
.  Maybe the intention was to bring the rest of the family out later - who knows.   James died in 1913.   He had senile dementia and was buried in Atawhai, Nelson.    I never knew he was there until I recently got his death cert.   I would have visited his grave as many other family members are buried there.

John married my Grandma Ella Annie Pahl (German/English)  their family gave to NZ with the NZ Company in 1842   - They were farming in Tadmor, Nelson NZ.

John and Annie had  Pearl, Iva, Sadie, Nancy, Alexander (who returned to England and RAF during WW!!) and my mother Patricia.   

John Collins is buried in Palmerston North, NZ.


My mother Patricia married Harold Delany (those Irish names keep popping up)
and then there was me   Susan.

I have four children.   3 boys and 1 girl.

If John and James came to NZ to seek gold they would have been a bit late for the goldrush as it was mostly over by the time they arrived.   They survived the great depression here which was a very difficult time.  My mother told me stories of her childhood so maybe they didnt have the option of making it back to Ireland.   John worked very hard on the railways for years.

I have a person - a friend of a friend trying hard to locate Johns birth cert in Ireland.   He was under the impression that Johns birth may not have been registered.   You may be able to help there.

I wondered what happened to Sarah and to the other siblings.  Thank you Thafor your post    Susan