still Searching for origins of MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana

[majm]

Hi all,

http://www.lib.mq.edu.au/all/journeys/menu.html

This is a link for the Diaries of Governor Lachlan Macquarie (Gov of NSW, which included of course  NI, VDL etc) .  Tis Just Moi Opinion, of course, that it is a valuable resource ... particularly for this thread, if looking at the movements of vessels and regiments.   Hence I note that in April 1820 his diary noted:

4 April  HM Storeship Coromandel anchored in Sydney Cove, from the Derwent and originally from England (31 Oct 1819) via Rio de Janeiro ....mentions Privates of the 46th (Regiment) ...  NO MENTION of any women and children in that entry BUT

23 April
Departing that day, several ships, including Lord Wellington for India with Detachments of the 14th. 24th. 30th. 34th. 46th. 69th. & 89th. Regts. consisting of 2 Subaltern officers, 113 Noncomd. Offrs. and Soldiers, 13 Women & 9 Children, under the Command of Lt. Raines of the 46th. Regiment, have Embarked & proceeded to join their Corps.

Why am I posting this on this thread ? 
a) Well, its simply to show that when trying to track "camp followers" they are rarely named in Colonial records, BUT may be indicated on Vitualling lists, or on paylists etc.    Extant pay lists may be readily available, and perhaps Wiggy may consider searching for the 46th Regiment's history  and /or for those pay lists.
b) Gov Macquarie at one stage made specific orders directing clergy conducting baptisms etc to transmit on a quarterly basis the full details to (from memory) Rev Cowper at St Phillips in Sydney.  His orders would have applied to Rev Knopwood in VDL just as they applied to baptisms in settlements in NSW.  Although I am aware that the some of the clergy in NSW perhaps either failed to transmit some/several/any of these "transmitted returns" I note that Knopwood conducted the baptism of CC Mc N's son (Dec 1820).   

IS IT LIKELY that Thomas McNally was born in VDL .... yes,  HOWEVER, is it certain that he was born in VDL  ... NO...

It is likely that the 46th's regiment's records are NOT in the same files as the 48th's (I'm interested in the 48th's for my own forebears), but the location for regimental records of that 1814-1825 era may be stored at the same archival facility as the 48th.   Hence, I note that the Bibliography notes from Clem Sargent's authoritative book about the 48th (in VDL and NSW) INDICATES THAT THE 48TH'S REGISTER OF MARRIAGES AND BAPTISMS in that regiment was one of Sargent's references.   So perhaps the 46th's register is extant. 
Other references in that text note that the WO series 12 has Muster Books and Pay Lists, WO 17 Monthly Returns, WO 22 Out Pension Records; and other WO references etc, including
WO 97 Series - Soldier's Documents.

As my own family history interests are in the 48th, I have not investigated the 46th's...  however, I have suggested, several times, that perhaps the 46th regimental records has some answers ....

ISBN : 064625612 2 (AND PAPERBACK IS 0646 255789). 

Cheers,  JM

PS, Pedantic ... Wiggy, you are not pedantic ...  , you are simply trying to get absolute proof that CC McN's son's father was Thomas Ransom.   

[majm]

Hi Wiggy,

I hope I am not duplicating information posted on either of those earlier threads, but at Reply 48 of this thread, you were kind enough to list the certificates you have ...

3.  I have certificate for Catharine's marriage with Frederick Von Stieglitz

And I just right now I have woken up, and turned PC back on to check on McNally (yet again  ) so I share :  I notice that this marriage was announced in the newspapers

MARRIED-At New Norfolk, on Tuesday last, by Special License, by the Rev. H. R. Robinson, A.M., Frederick Steiglitz, Esq. to Mrs. Catherine McNally, of the Royal Oak Inn, Green Ponds
Friday 22 January 1830 Colonial Times

Have you considered tracking down any index for Special Licences  and (trying to be gentle here) have you noticed Catherine's  title in this advert was "Mrs."  

Three threads, .... lots of findings presuming Mrs Ransom would actually be CC Mc N ....     

Could you please type up and post the full details from her marriage certificate ...  (don't post the certificate, it could be copyright, but your own transcript,  please     .... especially looking for "widow" rather than "spinster" ... if that info is not on the document, then perhaps you will need to chase up the Special Licence .... there SHOULD be some record for it somewheres.

Also, as its very late at night, and I hope my wording/colour of / or size of font is not too confronting or  harsh.  I apologise if it is.   

Cheers, JM

[Wiggy]

Hi JM,
Before I went to Tassie last time, in November, you asked me about this so I asked the TAO for info, both before we went and while we were there
 - as both parties were of age, no special licence was required for them to marry.
The certificate (No 45 in the New Norfolk parish register) shows their names and the place where they were married, Green Ponds  - it does not show Catharine as either widow or spinster or anything else - just names, place, date and officiating clergy (Robinson). She signed as Christina - by which name she was known.  The witnesses were W King and John McMullen - (I think - hard to read, but it is not McNally!)  There is no dispute about who she was at the time of marrying Fred - she was, Catharine Christina McNally, the person from the Royal Oak who'd been known as Mrs Ransom for  12-14 years - 14 if we believe Thomas - (and why shouldn't we?)   Yes I've seen that newspaper ad.  She signed 'McNally' for all legal documents as we've noted. Edit to add The Mrs in the ad may be in deference to her age - but she may have been Mrs McNally and that may have been the reason she couldn't marry Thomas!

You asked for direction in this hunt - OK here is comes!!  But you may not like it so I'm warning you   

We are quite happy with the fact that Catharine Christina McNally was with Thomas Ransom after 1819 - she was well know about town and in a secure relationship - of whatever type - with Thomas, and there are several newspaper cuttings to back this up.   This is not in dispute.

What we are trying to find out is, who she was, where she came from and when she arrived in Tasmania.  (See post one of this thread.)   
Thomas says the relationship is of 11 years standing when he writes to the Lieut. Gov. in 1824.    Now I am repeating myself.  So we are looking for someone who might be CCMcN in the 1814-1819 bracket or before - it is fairly certain that she is McNally by the time she gets to Tassie - as has been pointed out, the population was so small she wouldn't have been able to change her name - other than by marriage or association - without it being noticed.    (Very colourful Wiggy - think I'm trying to make a point here??)

I understand why you keep going forward - but I really think, in the interests of keeping the thread shorter, we'd better stick to the main questions.    You are worried about the length of the thread - me too!    

I will not be posting for a while - got to go and digest this lot and write it up.   Of course, if anyone suddenly finds her, I'll know and will be back like in a flash - but I'm going to keep quiet and do some serious thinking about the implications of all you've (collectively) told me.

thank you all - again and again.  I'm grateful and impressed by your expertise.

Wiggy      (that's a long post for someone trying to keep things short!!)   

[majm]

Hi Wiggy, and everyone following this thread,

I'm sorry that when you were in Tassie last Nov that the TAO did not provide you with info about Special Licences, and that instead, they explained that they did not require a special licence.

From memory on the TAO website there's every indication that the TAO has special licences archived from (again from memory) as early as about 1822.  I will check and post their archival reference.

From my own family history researchings, I am certain that applications for special licences are archived, and files usually contain affadavits from which ever party had been previously married, and thus in the instance of CC Mc N's 1830 marriage, I would suggest there's an affadavit in the TAO's archives, dated sometime in Dec 1829 or early Jan 1830.  I would expect such an affadavit to note a) date of death of previous spouse,  b) her nee name  c) name of vessel that she arrived on in VDL and d) date of her arrival etc. 

It is Just Moi Opinion that there was a special licence for that Jan 1830 marriage.  If so, it should provide the very key to your puzzle    It should answer the question as to who she was, where she came from and when she arrived in Tasmania .... I am sorry you have mis understood my reason for again raising the issue of the newspaper cutting's reference to a) special licence and b) Mrs.

Cheers,  JM  (I will be back shortly with the relevant TAO guide reference details giving the TAO archival references.)

[majm]

  

http://www.archives.tas.gov.au/guides/public

TAO Guides are online as pdf files.  I note that the TAO has affidavits for Marriages by Licence from 1823 ....  and that they are indexed in reverse chronological order.  The Archives reference would be CSO 1/6 - 7/100 (1823-36)

Also I note that the TAO has a guide for free immigration...  perhaps there are Archival records for her arrival in VDL ...


Cheers,  JM

[majm]

Hi there,
JM’s lunchbreak ...

Free immigration to VDL before 1821
From TAO guide, there were restrictions on free immigrants just turning up without permission.  TAO guide nominates the first three arrivals of free immigrants on vessels : Adamant (1816), Caroline (1820) and Skelton (1820)

a) I note that from various newspaper reports and the NSW Col Sec papers that the Adamant (Capt William Elder) was a whaling vessel and that her captain is indexed in NSW Col Sec  from as early as 1811 sailing to England, via Norfolk Island with provisions for NI.  I note that from HTG 19 Oct 1816, Adamant was at HT, but no passengers listed.  I note that from HTG 2 Nov 1816, Adamant was still at HT, and so too was the Lynx (the ROOK connection again)  I again note that the ship Governor Hunter (perhaps under Capt Rook) was built by Thomas Ransom at Norfolk Island.

b) I note that from HTG 2 Dec 1820, that the arrivals of both the Caroline and the Skelton list passenger arrivals, but none named McNally (or variations). The Caroline sailed direct from Plymouth, “touched at no port on her passage”, whereas the Skelton sailed from Leith, and then from Portsmouth, and touched at Cape of Good Hope.   There is no mention of any births on board, however, I note that Wiggy has his birth date as Nov 1820.  From my own family history searchings for the 1820's, I note that I have copies of primary records from NSW State Library and from NSW State Records office that clearly show that one of my forebears gave birth onboard their arrival ship (prior to that ships arrival)  at PJ  and that baby was then baptised at Macquarie St Chapel, Sydney with the records transmitted to Rev Cowper at St Phillips.  I note that from the Syd Gaz newspaper the arrival of this vessel to PJ was noted, but that no mention was made of the birth of that baby (my great great grandmother). 

I use my own example of the search for information about my own great great grandmother's origins as her parents were free immigrants BEFORE there were "immigration plans" and because their arrival to PJ was in the same decade as the birth and baptism of C C Mc N's baby boy, Thomas., and err... the baptism was in the same colony as Thomas Mc N ("my" one in Sydney, "Wiggy's" one in Hobart.  Fortunately for my own family history, my forebears turned up for the musters of free persons  and for the NSW 1828 census.

I would be pleased to continue following this thread, however, perhaps until a search of the TAO for the special marriage licence that ought to have been obtained so that the Rev in 1830 could rule out any bigamy issues, (ie the inference from Thomas Ransom's letter to Gov Arthur in 182/45), I will endeavour to refrain to search further for CC Mc N

Cheers, JM

EDIT to add, please check the baptism record for Thomas McNally carefully,  does it actually state UNMARRIED or perhaps it has "UX" being the then acceptable abbreviation to indicate WIFE,  its from the Latin "uxor" meaning wife ....  and "UX" (sometimes only the 'U' OR THE "X" is clear until you check carefully, but 'UX" was in use in NSW penal colonial times on musters, etc, and on baptismal records for another of my "came free" forebears when each of their "cornstalks" were baptised, and the parish records then transmitted to Cowper from 1818 to 1830 .. 

[majm]

Hi all,

I am attaching an image of a marriage certificate for a marriage in NSW in 1817.  I have blotted out the identifying features, and entered text "JM .... " at those places. (alas, poorly for I'm not good with the paint brush tool on my graphics software).

This certificate is extant, but I only have an image of it.  The parish register record is not set out in the same format, and I have a copy of that record also.  But the certificate itself, or a copy of it, would not normally be held by the Parish registrar.  It would have been handed to the Bride as proof that SHE was married.  It is quite rare for archives (govt or parish) to have the original of the Bride's certificate, or even a copy of the certificate itself. It is common for archives (eg NSW State Library) to have images of the parish records (which in 1817 should have been transmitted to St Phillips Church in Sydney from every Rev'd)...  The parish records should show whether the marriage was by Banns or by SL (Special Licence), and the marriage between minors needed to indicate the name of the person (and the authority ie father or guardian etc) giving consent.   

I don't have any forebears marrying in the early 1830's, so I am not able to provide an example of a marriage certificate for that period, sorry.

But I note from the 1817 certificate these relevant items:
....  Banns,  Batchelor (sic), Spinster, the ages of both, and that the groom signed, others making their mark.

Cheers,  JM  (PS by mid 1840's thse marriage certificates were around four foot long and only about eight inches high.  Usually folded up and fitted into the Brides front cover of a treasured Psalm Book, or the like.

Removed attachment JM   

[Wiggy]

SO . . .
I have a copy of the affidavit signed by Catharine the day before she married Frederick Stieglitz.  She declares she is a widow and signs her name McNally.

Questions now are:
1.  Did she consider herself a widow - albeit de-facto - of Thomas  (I would have after 12-16 years of stable relationship!!)  And remember she always signed herself McNally for anything legal so that doesn't necessarily mean too much in my humble opinion.
Or
2. Was there a McNally death round about that time - say 1827-29 - (because I don't think she wouldn't have bothered to marry Thomas at that late stage - they were settled, respected and there wasn't anyone kicking up a fuss by then - why rock the boat?)

Cheers team!

Wiggy

I'm going to the papers to look for McNally deaths - anyone with access to Tas or NSW death records is welcome to see what they can see!!!     I have a hunch we've seen a McNally death in 1827 - can't just remember where or exactly when and if his family is accounted for. 

[majm]

Hi Wiggy,

Good to know that you have that affidavit! So it was a marriage by special licence.

Would you please transcribe the words on the document from the Tas Archives and post them here when you have spare moments.

Also, many NSW burials from that period are indexed and online and free to search at  http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/searchHistoricalRecords.htm

Re your Q1, As I understand it, and I could be wrong, "widow" at that time may not have inferred she was Thomas Ransom's widow ...   I would have expected CC McN and Thomas Ransom to have married shortly before he made his will in the weeks before his death in 1829 for her to have been considered as the widow of Thomas Ransom, prior to her marriage (within twelve months) to Frederick Stieglitz.  Twelve months would perhaps be a minimum period of mourning for a widow receiving the benefit of his estate, particularly as her son, baptised as Thomas McNally also benefited from that estate. 

Re your Q2 ... Are you sure there was no-one around kicking up a fuss, or just that there's nothing in the on-line papers to suggest there was anyone fussing ...


Hope you will find the reference to a death for a McNally in abt 1827 mentioned somewhere on the many pages on these threads, or on your notes etc. 

Cheers,
JM