Utterly Stuck (HILL/ALLAN Family)

[tailz03]

I am looking for my great grandad's sisters family as we know NOTHING about them. We started from scratch using Scotlandspeople and familysearch but i am now at the point where i am stuck. I am looking for James Sr's family, also his birth details and their children. I already know about most of Jessies family, according to my research her siblings were ROBERT, ANDREW, DAVID (d.infant) and ELIZABETH (d.infant) MARGARET, JOHN AND ELIZABETH (see below for more details) Heres the details i have for James and Jessie:

Her name before getting married was
 Jessie Nicol Hill b. 1896 in Muiravonside
--> Parents George Hall Hill  b. 30 AUG 1866 - Glasgow
Elizabeth Sharp b. 1872 - New Monkland/ d. 24 dec 1939 Glasgow
She died 22/09/1954 in Kirkaldy, Fife

She married (i have the marriage certificate off Scotlandspeople, she is the only Jessie Nicol Hill and it confirms its her from her parents names):

James Robert Allan - Unsure of birth date as marriage certificate doesn't match Jessies age or his death certificate but its around 1886. No idea where he was born cant find any sort of birth certificate.
They married whilst living in the Maryhill Barracks, Glasgow  7/3/1913
Also lived at 39 florence street, Glasgow at some point.
He died 3/06/1955 in Dunoon, Argyll
His Parents according to the marriage certificate were Thomas Allan and Margaret Irvine but i have no more information apart from that on them.

I have found 1 son who appears on both James and Jessie's death certificates the information is scarce on him too so this is what i have;

James R Allan born between 1915 and 1930.


On a side note, i am also interested in Jessie's siblings;
MARGARET HILL b. 1904 d.1975 Married in glasgow to Michael Dyer unknown birth date, died in 1970. Parents Patrick and Elizabeth.
JOHN HILL b.1906-1970 thats all i know about him
ELIZABETH HILL b.1911 married 1928 to Benjamin Franks b.1909.

This is all the information i have, i hope someone can help.

[MonicaL]

Hi Tailz

Welcome to RootsChat 

As you are aware, this is a really hard period to research in as the records you need are not in the main available on line. Also, given that you are looking for descendants through the 20th Century it also difficult to do this through the main open forum of RootsChat as potentially people may still be alive which is contrary to RC's policy.

Unless someone recognises this family as their own and is able to contact you via the Private Messaging (PMs) service, it will be hard to progress this for you 

Are you based in Scotland? If so, and near to Edinburgh or Glasgow, you could consider having a day or so at the dedicated Genealogy Centres there where you can view more modern BMDs on line (past the cut offs for viewing images through Scotlands People).

Monica 

[MonicaL]

Just having another think about James Robert Allan  Was he a soldier when he married Jessie? It could be that he was not born in Scotland. There is no marriage showing for a Thomas Allan and Margaret Irvine on Scotlands People. There is one showing though in England on FreeBmd:

Thomas Allan and Margaret Ann Irvin, Stockton Vol. 10a Pg 123 - 1868 1st Qrt

What was the occupation of James' father Thomas as showing on his marriage and death certs?

Monica

[tailz03]

According to james's death certificate (3/06/1955 - Clyde buildings)  Thomas Allan was a stableman and Margaret Ann doesn't mention a job. By this point James's profession was Coal Miner. - Thats all the readable details from his death certificate.

Their marriage certificate:
J. R. Allan - Coporal 1st battalion cameronians, Scottish Rifles aged 27
Residence:- Maryhill Barracks Glasgow
Jessie Hill - Domestic Servant aged 23
Residence:- 39 Florence Street, Glasgow

Married at 102 Parson street, Glasgow

In the presence of Walter (Unreadable) Piper also of the same battalion
and Millie (Unreadable)

Thomas Allan - Stableman
Margaret Ann Allan (Irvine)

Warrent of Sheriff (Unreadable but looks like Cuttitute of Lanarkshire.


So you could be right with them being english, i was already gearing towards them being irish or english rather than scottish as ive spent a good £20 on just trying to find them and come up with nothing.

Also no im in the midlands so scotland is a 9 hour drive or a dear 1 hour plane journey Last time i went we didnt have much luck.

[MonicaL]

You could try checking to see whether there remains service papers for James Allan. Attestment papers include normally where someone was born and next of kin details (e.g. wife's name with often children's birth details) which can be a huge help. Given the dates of the marriage, sounds like James was a career soldier so you may also be able to find pension details for him which again can contain personal information on his discharge (addresses, correspondence etc.)

The 1st Battalion of the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) certainly look to have been in Glasgow at the time of James' marriage www.1914-1918.net/scotrif.htm

Might be worth a post on the Armed Forces board here on RC to see whether anyone could find his service details on line.

Monica 

[tailz03]

Well ive done that im just hoping someone can find him now, my grandma would love to meet any of her cousins as she doesnt know anyone at all! Hopefully some luck will come soon.

[Piglet01]

hello

The words you were having difficulty were 'Warrant of Sherrif Substitute'.  This would indicate that theirs was what was commonly called an 'irregular' - but perfectly legal marriage.

I think the link below gives a good explanation

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,227262.msg1202921.html#msg1202921

Regards,   Steve

[tailz03]

hello

The words you were having difficulty were 'Warrant of Sherrif Substitute.  This would indicate that their was what was commonly called an 'irregular' - but perfectly legal marriage.

I think the link below gives a good explanation

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,227262.msg1202921.html#msg1202921

Regards,   Steve

ah wonderful thank you, it would make sense as she was 17 at the time but i don't understand why they put her as 23. :S

[Forfarian]

she was 17 at the time but i don't understand why they put her as 23

Perhaps her parents weren't happy for her to get married so young and she modified her age a bit?

http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl lists two James Robert Allans born in the 1880s in England
2nd quarter, 1887, in Whitechapel, Vol 1c, Page 341
4th quarter, 1889, in Durham, Vol 10a, Page 341 (yes, both Page 341!)

Or could he have been illegitimate and registered as James Irvine? Or was he registered as plain James Allan, acquiring the middle name later?

The 1881 census has a Thomas Allan with wife Margaret Ann and children including James Robert Allan, 8 months, at Cowpen Bewley, Durham. This one would have been born in 1879, and aged 33 or 34 in 1913. You'd need to get his birth certificate and see if his mother's maiden name was Irvine. It's possible, because his eldest brother was aged 12, i.e. born in 1868/9, soon after the marriage of Thomas Allan and Margaret Ann Irvin.