Author Topic: New to huguenot records - connecting families - help sought  (Read 32413 times)

Offline elfinblues

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New to huguenot records - connecting families - help sought
« on: Friday 26 February 10 12:27 GMT (UK) »
Hello! I've recently discovered that I have what I believe to be huguenot ancestors. My link comes through Sarah Vasseur (b. c1772, married Samuel Johnson 1808, Christ Church, Spitalfields). She was born to James Anthony Mary (?) Vasseur and Sarah Baker.

Sarah is the first child, to the best of my knowledge, and was christened at Christ Church, Spitalfields. A FamilySearch search for James and Sarah as parents brings up a list of 9 possible children - the three most likely of which are Jacques Antoine, Jean Henri and Augusta/us Ann; however, the first two were christened at 'Threadneedle Street French Huguenot' and the third at Saint Matthew Bethnal Green. The other possible children were christened at Saint Leonard's Shoreditch. It is possible that the family moved around, and that all these children could have been born to the same parents, but I want to be sure who 'belonged' to which parents. I know the name 'Vasseur' couldn't have been an overly common one, but I do want to be as sure as I can about parentage before adding any of them to my tree. I just don't know how.

I should also point out that James Vasseur, the father, seems to have a French version of his name "on the go", too - Jacques Antoine Marie Vasseur. Although I'm sure this is perfectly possible, given his heritage, I would be sceptical that they were the same person were he not showing (by his French name) as being Jean Henri's father with Sara Baker the mother, so I am as sure as I can be that the different names apply to the same person. Another curious thing is that some of the children have what look like 'purely' French names whereas others have perfectly English names. I might have taken this difference as a sign of different parentage if Jacques Antoine and Jean Henri weren't two of the most likely children of James/Jacques and Sarah.

So, as you can probably tell, I'm rather at a loss as to how to confirm the members of this family. Ancestry doesn't throw up much after Sarah Vasseur (the eldest child); James/Jacques and Sarah's marriage does appear, as does the aforementioned Augusta, but none of the other children do. I presume this may be because the other children (or at least some of them) were christened in huguenot churches, and so further research may be required in that direction. The IGI throws up the nine possible children, but I'm aware the IGI should be treated more as an index or a signpost than as a primary resource in its own right, and it doesn't seem to throw up any results any further back than James/Jaques and Sarah.

If anyone out there has any experience of researching huguenot ancestors and is able to offer me any advice, all suggestions and help would be extremely gratefully received!! Thank you so much.

Yours, in a pickle.

Offline alpinecottage

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Re: New to huguenot records - connecting families - help sought
« Reply #1 on: Friday 26 February 10 12:50 GMT (UK) »
My Huguenot ancestors (Boullen family) did exactly the same things - used English and French names interchangeably, baptised their children all over the place in London and chopped and changed churches when they went elsewhere.  They had the first five children baptised after each child's birth, then there was a gap of 10+ years and they had the next five baptised alltogether as a job lot.  Why? - I wish I knew.

You will find a lot of Huguenot records in the non-conformist records on www.thegenealogist.co.uk.  It's a subscription or pay-per-view site.
Perrins - Manchester and Staffs
Honan - Manchester and Ireland
Hogg - Manchester 19 cent
Anderson - Newcastle mid 19 cent
Boullen - London then Carlisle then Manchester
Comer - Manchester and Galway

Offline alpinecottage

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Re: New to huguenot records - connecting families - help sought
« Reply #2 on: Friday 26 February 10 13:03 GMT (UK) »
A bit more: my French ancestors left France between 1720 and 1750, so at a similar time to when yours first appear in the English records.

I also get the impression that my Huguenots were very proud of their French ancestry - although it is 250 years since they left France, I had heard a family rumour that we had French blood and my recently discovered 4th cousin who is also descended from the same family remembers her grandmother talking about her "French grandmother" and in fact the "French grandmother" was born in London about 1815 to English-born parents.  I think they must have worked hard to assimilate with their English neighbours whilst at the same time retaining their own cultural traditions.

A lesson for us all today, I think!
Perrins - Manchester and Staffs
Honan - Manchester and Ireland
Hogg - Manchester 19 cent
Anderson - Newcastle mid 19 cent
Boullen - London then Carlisle then Manchester
Comer - Manchester and Galway

Offline elfinblues

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Re: New to huguenot records - connecting families - help sought
« Reply #3 on: Friday 26 February 10 13:40 GMT (UK) »
That's really interesting, thank you alpinecottage. As yours did the same as mine, in moving residences and churches, how did you find connecting them? Was it easy when you knew where to look, did you have to make a lot of educated assumptions? It appears to me as if all the IGI results could have been the same family - it's getting a bit more evidence that I need to concentrate on now.

One other question (sorry for asking so many!) - how did you manage to discover when they first left France/arrived in England? That would be a wonderful discovery to make, if I could.

Thank you!


Offline alpinecottage

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Re: New to huguenot records - connecting families - help sought
« Reply #4 on: Friday 26 February 10 14:29 GMT (UK) »
Fortunately, I found most of the family together on 1841 census, (complete with mis-spelt surname, which has been a bit of a problem) so I knew the children's names.  I have needed to check for parent's names and occupations on the parish records, to confirm I'm working on the correct family.  I also discovered my 4th cousin who is as interested as I am in the family and we have worked together (online, not in the flesh).  Actually I've had some lucky breaks - one died after falling downstairs under the influence, so there was a report of her inquest in the newspaper (on Gale Archive, accessible through some county libraries).  Another was an acrobat who died after having an accident in practice, so there was another newspaper report on his death and I could follow his earlier career in The Era, a stage oriented newspaper also on Gale.  I found an illegitimate member of the family because he was buried with other family members and was on the Manchester burials website.  Of course I used Freebmd, IGI, historical directories and The Genealogist and Ancestry (free at our local library).  The info on when they left France was found at the Huguenot Library in London - I didn't go but someone else had found it and it gives really interesting snippets, eg one of my earliest Boullens wore a tricorn hat and had his hair in a ponytail!

I have spent more time on this than is good for me  ::) and I was fortunate in that they were quite well documented and literate.  From about 1850-1900, they had a chain of grocers shops in Manchester, so not too itinerant but there are still unanswered questions.

The family is quite real to me and I sometimes feel as if I could jump on a bus and pop over to see them....see, I told you I'd spent too long on them!
Perrins - Manchester and Staffs
Honan - Manchester and Ireland
Hogg - Manchester 19 cent
Anderson - Newcastle mid 19 cent
Boullen - London then Carlisle then Manchester
Comer - Manchester and Galway

Offline garstonite

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Re: New to huguenot records - connecting families - help sought
« Reply #5 on: Friday 26 February 10 15:29 GMT (UK) »
Elfin Blues...I have PM`d you...you can PM Alpine Cottage with the site I have passed on...
nearly 50,000 results for Vasseur and nearly 600 results for Boullen
.allan ;)
oakes,liverpool..neston..backford..poulton cum spittal(bebington)middlewich,cheshire......   sacht,helgoland  .......merrick,herefordshire adams,shropshire...tipping..ellis..  jones,garston,liverpool..hartley.dunham massey..barker. salford

Offline coombs

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Re: New to huguenot records - connecting families - help sought
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 27 February 10 10:25 GMT (UK) »
Hi

My Huguenot ancestors came to London inbetween 1685 and 1752. The last one was a Francois Fradin who came to England in 1752, wed in 1759 and died in 1803. I have Auber ancestors who also used the name variant of Obey.

Ben
Researching:

LONDON, Coombs, Roberts, Auber, Helsdon, Fradine, Morin, Goodacre
DORSET Coombs, Munday
NORFOLK Helsdon, Riches, Harbord, Budery
KENT Roberts, Goodacre
SUSSEX Walder, Boniface, Dinnage, Standen, Lee, Botten, Wickham, Jupp
SUFFOLK Titshall, Frost, Fairweather, Mayhew, Archer, Eade, Scarfe
DURHAM Stewart, Musgrave, Wilson, Forster
SCOTLAND Stewart in Selkirk
USA Musgrave, Saix
ESSEX Cornwell, Stock, Quilter, Lawrence, Whale, Clift
OXON Edgington, Smith, Inkpen, Snell, Batten, Brain

Offline richarde1979

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Re: New to huguenot records - connecting families - help sought
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 27 February 10 16:25 GMT (UK) »
Hello Elfin

I have a fair bit of experience researching Huguenot ancestors, especially in Londons East End .

First off just to give context, the Huguenots came over to England in several waves, the first after the Massacre of St Bartholomews Eve in the 1500's. This didn't really leave much of a lasting impact, but the real big wave which did came a century or so later in the 1680's, following the Dragonnades and the Revocation of the Edit of Nantes in France, this probably at very least 50,000 strong. Another surge came to England between 1698-1702, maybe 10,000 -15,000, most of these having been refugees already in the Netherlands, which had seen similarly huge numbers flee to them in the 1680's. It then settled down considerably, though steady numbers continued to come at least until Louis XIV death in 1715.

There was then a slightly more favourable condition to Protestants in France, though there faith was still illegal, so not many came in the 1720's/1730's. The Protestants still in France, the 'Desert Church',  felt confidant enough to start worshiping openly again around 1745/6 in some areas, in the hope they would be seen to be 'harmless' and the law might then be changed in their favour,  but unfortunately this instead precipitated another back lash against them from around 1748, and for next 10 years or so, there was a fresh wave of refugees , nowehere near as big as 1680's, but still maybe between 5,000-10,000, particularly from the Normandy and Poitou provinces where the Roman Catholic Church authorities held considerable sway over the local Intendants.

The Protestants were not finally given civil status in France until the 1780's, and not full equality until under Napoleon at the turn of the 19th C. There were still small amounts of refugees coming to London (perhaps 200 or so) as late as the last decade of the persecutions, the 1770's, almost all these from the Cambresis and Picardy, on the Flemish borders, where again the cause was a particularly zeaolus regional Catholic Clergy, with much influence at local government.

Anyway apologies for the potted history lesson....but I think it is important for you as your family is using the Threadneedle Street Church at an unusual and relatively very late date, the 1790's.  This is a very interesting time for the church and the French community in London.  Very few of the Refugees from the original waves 1680's-1720's, were still using the church by this late a date, most had become well assimilated by the 1750s'/60's, and if not the son and daughters, then the grandsons and daughters of the original refugees certainly had mostly become Anglicised.

The congregation of Threadneedle Street at the outset of the 1790's largely then consisted of this later wave of refugees from 1748-1780, and their families, and perhaps one or two older members, surviving children of the earlier waves.

The 1790's saw the numbers of baptisms at Threadneedle Street shrink hugely again, and it would never really recover. Partly this was because no new refugees were now coming to replenish the church, but also this was the period when England went to war with Revolutionary France. Londoners have always had a reputation for being somewhat excitable and prone to the mob and rabble (e.g,  the attacks on Catholics during the Gordon riots just a decade before this in 1780, and then later the attacks on German Londoners during WW1). To be seen as 'French' during this period was undoubtedly dangerous in London, so a great many Anglicised their names and switched to the English churches. In effect it greatly speeded up a process which had long already been going. By the opening decade of the 1800's only perhaps two dozen or so families still regularly used the French Church at Threadneedle Street.

Your Vasseurs are interesting because they are using the church during the 1790's, but, assuming it is the same couple, they are also using the Anglican churches. (No moving around required for this by the way, they would have most likely been living in Bethnal Green or Spitalfields, and Threadneedle Street, St Leonards, St Matthews and Christ Church were all within easy walking distance, and most Huguenot families will be found using all four of these churches, and possibly a fifth too, St Marys Whitechapel). His wifes surname Baker is English (If it had been for example Boulanger and she had Anglicised it, they would still have used the French form at Threadneedle Street) so he seems to have married a local.  I'd think then he is most likely the son of a first generation refugee, who came over 1748-68, and was born in London himself, or he was bought here as a very young child at the tail end of this spectrum.

You would expect to find their names recorded with the French forms in the French Churches, and English in the English Churches, even well before this later date, this was just the protocol for recording their names. For example a Jacques will be a James in English churches, Francois a Francis, Andre an Andrew, and so on. This is not at all unusual and doesn't really reflect what they themselves prefered to be known as day to day, so I wouldn't draw any firm conclusions from that.

I have a few of the Huguenot Societies publiciations and will look through them and see if the Vasseurs are mentioned and get back to you if I find anything of interest, but hope that helps a bit with your searches for now.

Richard
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London

Offline coombs

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Re: New to huguenot records - connecting families - help sought
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 27 February 10 17:07 GMT (UK) »
We meet again Richard. Its me Ben, the one who I have been conversing with you on another forum and we found that I share ancestors with the Kray Twins.
Researching:

LONDON, Coombs, Roberts, Auber, Helsdon, Fradine, Morin, Goodacre
DORSET Coombs, Munday
NORFOLK Helsdon, Riches, Harbord, Budery
KENT Roberts, Goodacre
SUSSEX Walder, Boniface, Dinnage, Standen, Lee, Botten, Wickham, Jupp
SUFFOLK Titshall, Frost, Fairweather, Mayhew, Archer, Eade, Scarfe
DURHAM Stewart, Musgrave, Wilson, Forster
SCOTLAND Stewart in Selkirk
USA Musgrave, Saix
ESSEX Cornwell, Stock, Quilter, Lawrence, Whale, Clift
OXON Edgington, Smith, Inkpen, Snell, Batten, Brain