John Williams

[jomiskelly]

Am trying to trace John Williams and his parents, bn abt 1821 Roe Wen, Caerhun, Caernarvonshire.  He lived with his family in Llandudno on the Orme.  I have him from 1865 onwards but want to trace him prior to this in order to find more info on him his first wife and his parentage etc.  He was a gardener and one time publican and may have been a shoemaker in his early days.  He married Martha ELLIOTT of Daventry in 1865 and had 8 children (2 of whom died young)

John was a widower when he married Martha according to their marriage cert. and his father was noted as Thomas WILLIAMS, Shoemaker whom I believe died in testate in 1857 in Llandudno.

John and Martha lived at the Old telegraph House on the Orme, Llandudno and were burried in St. Tudno's churchyard

Their children were

Martha bn 1866 and married Thomas Bridge  MORRIS
Emma bn 1866 and may have died the same year
Mary Alice bn 1868 who was a nurse and died a spinster in 1931
Eleanor Louisa bn 1869 who married Samuel EDWARDS
Richard Thomas bn 1871 who married Emily MORRALL
John Elliott bn 1873 and died 1874
William Elliot bn 1877 and married Susannah OWEN
Emma Jane bn 1879 who died a spinster in 1953

Any help would be most welcome

[Tall Al]

Hi,

Found a John Williams on FamilySeach.org christened on 4 July 1819 at Caerhun - parents Thomas Williams and Jane - could this be your man?
Will check the early censuses to see if there is any other trace.

Alan

[Jo Harding]

Hello Tall Al,

Your ancestors were of interest as I have ancestors from Llandudno and my grandparents are buried in St Tudno's too. I know the Old Telegraph House that you refer to. I better stop reminiscing about Llandudno or I'll be here all day!

The Parish Registers for Caerhun (another lovely place) are on Freereg.

http://www.freereg.org.uk

I looked for a John Williams there and found quite a few entries for baptisms of this name in that period. They have the following:

2x baptisms for John Williams in 1817.
1 baptism for john Williams in 1818.
1 baptism for John Williams in 1819.
1 baptism for John Williams in 1824.

There are more in other years but a bit further away from 1821.

The father's name of Thomas Williams narrows the search down a bit and the ones with Thomas as their father are:

John Williams, baptised 02/02/1817 Caerhun Parish Church, son of Thomas Williams and Emma.

John Williams baptised 04/07/1819, son of Thomas Williams and Jane.

I cannot seem to find any siblings for either of them.

The marriage could not be found for either couple but it doesn't look as if the registers for Caerhun are on Freereg.

Can anyone find him on the 1841 to see if he is married then?

Since the name of John Williams is so common in North Wales, you may be in difficulty finding him and his first marriage.

Jo.

[jomiskelly]

Thank you Alan and Jo,

I have looked at freereg before but didn't feel any were my John due to dates.  The census entries from 1871 onwards would suggest John was born 1821 (and his death cert).  However as his second wife Martha, was getting on for 20 years his junior, may be he was economical with the truth on their meeting and maintained the pretence re his age.  If this was the case, I might favour the Thomas and Emma parentage.  It looks as though John and Martha followed traditional naming rules for their children (ie Child #1 named after Martha and her mother also Martha, first son was named Richard Thomas, Martha and John's fathers #2 son was John etc.)  If this was the case Emma would be a likely possibility especially as they repeated it when Emma #1 died.  A lot of supposition though.  I'd really like to track them down in census returns etc prior to 1865, with a degree of certainty.

As for familysearch result, I have considered this too, though there are no offspring named Jane only Emma Jane.  This of course, means nothing which is why I am stuck.  There is nothing solid to follow within the census returns to lead me one way or another.

I have looked at the census returns of 1841 - 1861 for both Thomas and John on numerous occasions and can't really pin them down. I have even looked for John in Daventry, being son of a shoemaker and possibly one himself, with Martha coming from there but the 1861 census may be too early for this as he married Martha in 1865.

Not really sure where to go from here.

[Tall Al]

Hi,

Thanks for the additional details - it gets very difficult I know from experience!

I'm not sure if this helps or not but -

Assuming John was the son of Thomas and Emma I have found an Emma Williams (born Caerhun in 1776) in the 1841 and 1851 censuses - but regretfully no trace of husband Thomas at the addresses.

To confuse matters there is a Thomas Williams  - age 65 at High Street, Bangor on his own - could this be a shop - says he is "Ind" - does this means Independent as a possible Shoemaker? 

In 1841 census Emma (age 65) was at Chapel street Tro y dre, Llanwrst, Denbighshire  with a Mary Williams age 25 and John Williams age 20 - says they were not born in the county. (Llanwrst District 17, Page 9).

In 1871 at Plough Street, Llanwrst - Mary Pritchard age 24 - unmarried is living with her mother Mary Williams (also unmarried) age 57 - they are dressmakers and Mary Williams was born at Roe Wen! Could Mary Williams be John's sister?

In 1851 Emma age 76 was at Llanwrst (can't read the address) with daughter Mary age 35 (born in Caerhun) unmarried and Granddaughter Mary Pritchard age 4 (born in Llanwrst). (LLanwrst District 7j Page 15)

Could this be any connection?

Alan

[Jo Harding]

Hello jomiskelly,

I wouldn't be too worried about getting the year of birth for John Williams exact at 1821. I have found that the year of birth can vary and am never sure how accurately they knew their ages in those days.

I think you can rule out Thomas Williams and Jane as parents. They seem to be on the 1841 census at Caerhun, Thomas a farmer. Reference HO107/1393/1 Page 5. It should be borne in mind that Thomas Williams is such a common name in thse parts you cannot be 100% sure it is the same one.

I favoured Thomas and Emma for the same reasons as you did.

I think you will be lucky to find them for sure in the census returns for 1841 and 1851. Such common names that you couldn't be 100% certain you have the right ones.

Any other clues, Wills and such like? Have you looked for these? What about local history books, trade directories etc for Llandudno? I know they have trade directories going back for many years for the town and surrounding areas.

Have you tried asking for information on people who lived on the Great Orme? There is quite a bit written on the history, including residents. A site called Llandudno Local has the facility to post questions on local matters.

Jo

[jomiskelly]

Thnks very much both,

Your help is most welcome.  I have seen most of these census returns on which you comment but as you say such an awful name to be trying to trace.  I have a "cousin" in llandudno (not far from the Old Telegraph House) who is searching the churchyard for Thomas.  We know john is there and roughly where but she hasn't actually found the stone.  We hope that this might lead to more info though we do have a transcription of john's headstone.

I have used llandudno local too, thanks and also have a copy of Llandudno before the hotels which has other branches therein (Hugh Jones of Adwy Rhydd). I will perhaps try a Llandudno Local posting!

Again thank you both for your input.  Much appreciated

Jo

[hiraeth]

Hello jomiskelly

ref 1861 RG9/Piece4359/Folio81/Page41

Have you considered this John Williams, wid., occ gardener b c1822 Caerhun?
He is lodging at 16 Bronhyfryd, Llandudno.  Unfortunately his relationship to Head of Household looks like it has been written over at least once.

Heather

[jomiskelly]

Dear Heather,

Thank you very much for your suggestion and it is an entry that I considered as being my John but I can't for the life of me now recall why I had suddenly started to doubt it.  I do still have it listed as him in my tree etc.

I had wondered if his relationship was boarder and presumed the niece was the householder's niece.  You have enlightened me re the dwelling though, thanks  I have struggled on numerous occasions trying to figure the name.

many thanks

Jo