Enlistment puzzle

[Pat Byrne]

My Great grandfather Charles Best was living in Dublin when he enlisted in the army for the Great War,the puzzle is set out below.

1 - In the 1911 irish census it states his place of birth has being Manchester.

2 - On his enlistment details it states he signed up in Dublin with St Marys Durham as his place of birth.

3 - He died in Battle on 7th July 1915 and on his death cert it states place of birth South Africa.

4 - Charles enlisted with the 1st East Lancashire Regiment and his service number was 7312.

Apart from item 1 his census details could the army records be so wrong as to be so way out with his birth place details?

Also with Charles living in Dublin would it have been a usual thing for an English army regiment be signing people up in Dublin Ireland or would there have been other reasons he did not enlist with an Irish regiment.

I have his medal card but that says very little on it apart from his medal details.

Any details regarding these questions would be of a great help and as you can see it is a bit of an Enigma to say the least.

Thanks for your time and efforts in helping with this one.
Pat

[km1971]

Hi Pat

Are his enlistment papers on Ancestry? If so can you post the page number they are on, or cut and paste the link.

Ken

[Pat Byrne]

Hi Ken.

The details regarding Charles Enlisting was from Find My Past and it just gives basic infomation as set out below.

Name : Best, Charles
Regiment : East Lancashire Regiment
Battalion : 1st Battalion
Last name : Best
First Name : Charles
Initial : C
Birthplace : St Marys Durham
Enlisted : Dublin
Residance :
Rank : Private
Number : 7312
Date Died : 7th July 1915
How Died : Killed in Action.
Theatre of war : France & Flanders.

Thats all the info it gives.
Thanks Pat

[corisande]

A few points

1. That stuff from Find My Past is the Soldiers who Died in the Great War record, rather than anything unique to FindMyPast

2. http://www.1914-1918.net/eastlancs.htm gives you a potted history of the East Lancs. It is helpful to know what battalion he was in, as each battalion was posted completely separately to others in the regiment.

3. Note 2nd Battalion was in South Africa at outbreak of war. Someone had to fill in death cert details who probably did not know him, and could well have put SA if he was in 2nd Battalion.

4. Do you have his birth cert. His death cert should give you his (approx) age. Or putting it differently the Irish Census (if you are sure you have his correct entry) say age 32, ie born circa 1879 - which might lead you to a Charles William Best born 1879 in Blackburn. Nothing suitable in Durham

5. If that is your man in Dublin in 1911, he gave those details to the enumerator himself, but death cert was by someone who may not have known him, difficult to say on reliance on SDGW (CWGC are more accurate, but they have less details in this case)

6. The Medal Index Card says he arrived in France 28 April 1915, which implies that he probably enlisted about 6 months before that as he does not seem to have been in army previously.

7. I don't think I would put that much weight on him not being in an "Irish" regiment. Remember that Ireland was part of UK at that time, and recruits could opt for a regiment of their choice. If he had been born in Lancashire, and was not "Irish" then he would have opted for a Lancs regiment.

8. His marriage cert would be worth having as it should give is father's name and address.

10. Have you any idea why he was in Dublin

[ainslie]

Someone might have misheard 'Dublin' as 'Durham'.  Are there St Mary's parishes in both cities?
Just a thought.

[aghadowey]

Here's link to 1911 Irish census with Charles' birthplace listed as Manchester (original scanned image clearly says Manchester)-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/South_Dock/Queen_s_Square/81836/

[corisande]

Here's link to 1911 Irish census with Charles' birthplace listed as Manchester 

I suppose my question boils down to "is the OP absolutely sure that this is the correct Charles Best?"

[Pat Byrne]

Hi everyone,

I am sure that the 1911 Census is the correct person, i do have his marriage cert from 1910 he married Ellen O'Shea and the address given is Townsend street Dublin,the child at the time is my grandad (deceased)
His father and mother were William and Alicia (Elizabeth) Best,these details are gained directly from the church that they wed at in Dublin,it appears they were Dubliners themselves and he does have brothers and sisters all born in Dublin.
I cannot find details of him in the Irish records at the time he would have been born c1879 nor in the English records.all the Charles Best's in Lancashire seem to remain and marry in that area when they become adults.
As you can see it is a puzzle and i suppose these details are for the other boards.
I have a photo of Charles in his uniform and it has been confirmed as the 1st East Lancashire Fusiliers with the badge on his uniform/hat.
My Idea in asking was because if he was born in the Manchester region could this be why he selected the Lancashire Fusiliers has his regiment.
As you can see with this one it just gets more and more complicated.
Anyway if anyone does find anything else regarding these details even if its the tiniest detail please do let me know.
Thanks,
Pat

[forester]

On the positive side and if he was a pre-war regular:

7312 would have enlisted around late summer/early autumn 1902.
The 1st Battalion were in Dublin in 1902, moving to the Curragh in 1905.

...... but why would he have already been in Dublin in 1902?

I don't know anything about Irish records, but I think you need to locate him in 1901, whether in England or Ireland. Although he doesn't appear to have married until 1910, the marriage cert may help to backtrack by way of his father's name.

Phil

Pat, nearly doubled with your post so ignore the now irrelevant bits.