Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms

[rockhopper]

Hi - that all works out. It was probably info which I provided to the Douglas Archives. Sir Walter Scott was from the same Haliburton family   

[amac1210]

Yes, it's interesting to also find the Halyburtons married into the Earl of Loudoun's family. Everything starts to connect going this far back. I've found some connections with the Earls (the Campbell family). James Douglas married Janet Sim, and we find that she was the daughter of Francis Sim and Margaret Blackwood. The 1718 marriage for that couple reveals Francis to be linked to the 3rd Earl of Loudoun, Hugh Campbell; it also reveals that Margaret Blackwood was the daughter of John Blackwood, an "Officer" to the same Earl. John Blackwood married Sibylla Campbell, and one possible birth shows her as a daughter of Sir. George Campbell of Cessnock (1639-1704). Possibly illegitimate? This last connection isn't proven, but it seems interesting. Especially as Janet Douglas - daughter of James Douglas - marries another military man, John Gow. They then have grandsons named after persons like Francis Rawdon Hastings, who was very successful in the army, and who married the 6th Countess of Loudoun. Clearly, the Loudoun gentry were highly admired in the local community. I suspect James Douglas was the gardener to the Earl. Especially with their shared Halyburton ancestry. It would be a case of friends of friends, and being well-connected, marriage would have meant a great deal socially within a small town setting like Loudoun.

By the by, we're also cousins of Cardinal Basil Halyburton Hume - who descends from exactly the same folk! It's an unusual and rare surname. I purchased Sir. Walter Scott's genealogical memoirs, and he does the family a great service - we wouldn't know half of what we do without his work. It's often incredibly obscure, and the primary sources lie in medieval state papers etc.

There remains significant work to be done filling in the gaps regarding the Marshall family, and the Gladstanes family. Both married into the Douglas line, and it isn't at all clear how we might investigate them further. I don't like leaving lines untouched, since it leads to a bias in the genealogy. However, as mentioned previously, the primary sources are generally painstaking to get a hold of.

Of course, in descending from the Douglas and Halyburton families, we find people like Malcolm III and Henry I in the ancestry. Perhaps even Henry II, but a direct line isn't clear with him yet. As to Loudoun Earls, including their cousins like Sir. George Campbell, one prominent ancestor is King James IV. Which makes Mary Queen of Scots a 1st cousin, many times removed. That really made me think!

[rockhopper]

Yes, and thanks. Those Memoirs are accessible online but I may buy them too. Such a good historical resource. Every now and then I look for Marshall and Gladstanes - the latter for us which one? Don’t forget that we are connected to James VI of Scotland and I of England through the line of Archibald Douglas, 6th Earl of Angus. My ancestry from James 1669 a Gardener and Burgess of Jedburgh, is through George 1720 also a Gardener and George’s son John 1759 who was a Master Clock Maker in Jedburgh in the late 1700’s. John Douglas and his wife Mary Newton/Nuton moved to Galston, Ayrshire in about 1800 so that he could work for the Campbell ‘Earl of Loudoun’ (on Clocks). The Halyburtons connect us to lots of interesting history. In fact we have more than one line of Halyburtons in common with the Sir Walter Scott - Author etc.

[amac1210]

You mention the Earl of Angus - I don't see any direct connection there? Our Douglas line goes to the Lairds of Timpendean, onto the Lairds of Bonjedward, and eventually connects with William Douglas, 1st Earl of Douglas. The Earls of Angus split off from our line in the distant past. They were also much more wealthy than our folks - we seem to have been guarding the borders.

For the Gladstanes, you find Katherine Gladstanes married to Andrew Douglas. This Andrew was the son of Archibald Douglas (Laird of Timpendean) and Ann Marshall. William Ewert Gladstone will no doubt connect very distantly to the Gladstane family, somehow.

The Olipher family were also another great Borders family - Jonet Olipher married your James Douglas. I wonder where John (1759) learned his clock-making. Was he self-made, or apprenticed to someone? That's where the history can get very interesting.

Anyway, must visit Timpendean Castle sometime... it's just a few walls and some stones now, but worth a look!

[rockhopper]

Even though a distant past we are still related to the Earls of Angus. George Douglas 1st Earl of Angus (Douglas line) and Margaret Douglas of Bonjedward were full brother and sister. Both were children of William Douglas, 1st Earl of Douglas and his Mistress, Margaret Stewart, Countess of Angus (in her own right).

Lord Lyon – 1952

Major Henry James Sholto Douglas, representative of Douglas of Timpendean presented a petition to the Lord Lyon praying for matriculation in his name of the Arms appropriate to him as representative of the family of Douglas of Timpendean.

On 2nd January 1952, the Lord Lyon King of Arms, found in fact:
1. That the petitioner's descent through Andrew Douglas, 1st of Timpendean, younger son of George Douglas of Bonjedward, is satisfactorily established from Margaret Douglas, 1st of Bonjedward, natural daughter of William, Earl of Douglas, by Margaret, Countess of Angus, in favour of whose natural son, George Douglas, the said Countess resigned the Earldom of Angus.
2. That the issue of the said Margaret Douglas, 1st of Bonjedward, by her husband, Thomas Johnson, bore the name and arms of Douglas of Bonjedward.
3. That John Douglas of Bonjedward, in 1450, bore arms differenced by a label of three points charged with as many mullets, on what ground is not known.
4. That in a painted armorial pedigree seen by Alexander Nisbet (System of Heraldry, Vol. I, p. 79) the descent of Douglas of Bonjedward was incorrectly deduced from a third son of the Earl of Angus, which may have been induced by the difference in the seal of 1450.
His Lordship found in law:

“That the petitioner is entitled to matriculate arms on ancient user before 1672 and with a difference congruent to descent illegitimately through Margaret Douglas of Bonjedward from William, Earl of Douglas, and Margaret, Countess of Angus…

The Lord Lyon, King of Arms (Innes of Learney) stated that…

Reverting to Andrew Douglas, 1st of Timpendean, third son of George Douglas of Bonjedward, in 1479, the pedigree of this House of Bonjedward is carried back to Margaret Douglas, illegitimate daughter of William Douglas, Earl of Douglas, by Margaret Stewart, Countess of Angus, eldest daughter and heiress of Thomas Stewart, Earl of Angus. By a Countess of Angus the Earl of Douglas had also an illegitimate son, George, upon whom the Countess settled, by due feudal procedure, the dignity and estates of the Earldom of Angus, which have since descended in the line of that George, who duly became Earl of Angus, which line, following the events of 1455 and a grant of the forfeited duthus, Douglasdale, was taken to have become chief by settlement and came to be recognised, and bore arms, as chief of the name of Douglas.

The position of Margaret Douglas, the Earl of Douglas's illegitimate daughter by Margaret, Countess of Angus, is different, because no step was taken, as in the case of her brother, George, to bring her in as an heir of tailzie even to the Angus succession, and accordingly she remains in the status of the Earl's natural daughter, but her children took or bore the name of Douglas and, as we see, have done so for five and a half centuries. Her husband appears as Thomas filio Johannis, and by this person Margaret Douglas was mother of John Douglas of Bonjedward, ancestor of the Bonjedward and Timpendean line above mentioned. There is nothing to say who Thomas and his father, John, were. They may have been Douglasses, early cadets of the main line of Douglas, but on the other hand, the presence of a saltire (a diagonal cross – by me) in chief in the arms in one seal of Douglas of Bonjedward and Timpendean suggests that Filio Johannis was a latinisation of Johnston.

Anyway, I do not consider it necessary to investigate the origins of Margaret's husband further, since there is no doubt about the foundation of the house originating in Margaret herself and her grant of the lands of Bonjedward in 1404. There is evidence of use of the arms by members of the family prior to 1672, first in the person of John Douglas of Bonjedward, 1450, who bore the paternal coat of arms with a label of three points gules charged with three mullets argent for difference. This suggests to me that Margaret and John sought to hold themselves out as the next line in “remainder” to the Angus inheritance after issue of her father, Earl George (cf. also Nisbet's System of Heraldry, p. 79). (Margaret's father was Earl William - by me). The painting of the genealogical tree of the House of Douglas to which he refers shows that an effort was there made to deduce Bonjedward legitimately from a third son of Angus. In the light of modern knowledge this is evidently incorrect, and it probably just shows the result of the self-assumed label difference on the painter of the pedigree. That is what correct differencing by the Lord Lyon is to guard against…”

Any theories that Margaret Douglas and the Bonjedward line commenced from any of the Earls of Angus are incorrect suppositions. (by me).

[rockhopper]

John Douglas 1759 was apprenticed to John McDonald, Master Watchmaker, Inverness for 7 years from 10 March, 1772. At the same time (10 March,1772) it was written that Alexander Douglas was apprenticed to John McDonald for 7 years from 12 June, 1769. 5 pounds for Alexander Douglas. Were John Douglas and Alexander Douglas closely related?
On 30 January 1793 Joseph Ellcot was an Apprentice Clockmaker with John Douglas 1759 in Jedburgh. 2 pounds premium paid. [British Clockmakers ad Watchmakers Appprentice Records 1710 – 1810 by Dennis Moore – Ashbourne Derbyshire: Mayfield Books 2003]. [Records also at the Guildhall, London].
On 31 October 1794 Thomas Hill was an Apprentice Clockmaker with John Douglas 1759 in Jedburgh. 3 years 6 months. 6 pounds, 6 shillings. [British Clockmakers ad Watchmakers Appprentice Records 1710 – 1810 by Dennis Moore – Ashbourne Derbyshire: Mayfield Books 2003]. [Records also at the Guildhall, London].

[amac1210]

Thanks for those citations. I suppose the research might turn to Alexander Douglas, to determine his relationship (if any) to John Douglas. Clock-making is an interesting profession to turn to. Trip to the local cemetery might be interesting too - as far as I know nobody has researched headstones for James Douglas (on my side) and his father William. I've never visited Loudoun, but it might be worthwhile next Summer - they've got an interesting battle site from the Wars of Independence too! Did they ever find a stone for John Douglas, born c.1640? I know they have one for his son James (+1750). I'm assuming the Lairds of Timpendean were buried in the same area, but that we've lost their memorials by now. Not unlikely that some of their earlier number might have been interred in local monasteries, and priories, in line with the practices of the medieval times. It'd be an interesting project for more research?

[amac1210]

Melrose Abbey seems to hold William Douglas, the 1st Earl of Douglas - alongside the 2nd Earl and William Douglas, Lord of Liddesdale. I'm wondering if the Bonjedwards were interred at Jedburgh Abbey, and I'm not sure about the Timpendeans? Certainly, by the time of the Reformation, we'd have to imagine them being buried in the local kirk instead.