Alice Louisa YATES (nee Rumbol)

[RebeccaNZ]

Hi,

I am trying to find information on my great, great grandmother Alice Louisa Rumbol - she married three times.

1stly to William Shaw in 1881
2ndly to James Yates in 1885
3rdly Edwin Thorne in late 1890's.

Poor woman - she was a widow twice in a lifetime.

Anyway - as far as I can tell she only had 2 children - Alice Emma Yates born 13th July 1890 in Southwark, and William Charles Shaw born 5th November 1881 in Lambeth.

William Charles was my great-grandfather who moved to New Zealand in the 1920's. I have been talking to my grandparents and apparently he talked about having a brother in England - so far I can find no record of Alice Louisa having any other children. But, I guessed that if she did have other children James Yates would have been the father.

In 1891 census Alice Louisa is living in Camberwell with her children and James Yates is not with her. There are only two children present at that time, by 1901 - Alice Louisa has remarried and is living in Monmouthshire. It's possible that she did have another child between 1891 and 1901 but the child is not present in the 1901 census - it could have been at a school or staying with another family member.

Extra information -
Alice Louisa Shaw married James Yates on 2nd November 1885 in Chelsea at the same church she married in the first time - St Judes. Alice Louisa Rumbol was born 13th April 1862 in Paddington and James Yates was born circa 1859 according to marriage record - it looks like his profession is Guardsman but I can't quite read the handriting. .

If anyone knows about or is able to find any information on any other children for Alice Louisa I would greatly appreciate it, because I am trying to figure out what happened to Willaim's family after he moved to New Zealand.

Rebecca

[suzard]

Hi Rebecca,
I posted on your "other" thread.

There was a daughter Winifred Thorne- edit : sorry they had a son -name very badly written don't really know what it is

I will PM you

Suz

[Valda]

Hi

On her first two marriages she married a bachelor but what do you know of Edwin Thorne because of course this may not have been his first marriage?

Marriages Jun 1899  
Thorne  Edwin George     Newport M  11a 343    
Yates  Alice Louisa     Newport, M.  11a 343

On the 1901 census Edwin was 46 so a little old for a first marriage.

1891 census RG12 4382 folio 25
Bryn ? Terrace Mynyddyslwyn, Monmouthshire
Edwin G Thorne 36 Head Married  General Labourer St Michael Creech Somerset English
Maria Thorne 43 Wife Married St Michael Creech Somerset English
Maud Mary Thorne 12 Daughter Winston? Somerset English
Edward Harold Thorne 10 Son Kingston Somerset English
plus 1 lodger


Deaths Sep 1898  Thorne  Maria  52  Newport, M.  11a 129


So there was a step brother.

1901 census RG13 4936 folio 77
39 Powell Street Abertillery Monmouthshire
Edwin Geo Hanny 28 Head Married Insurance Agent Risca Monmouthshire English
Maud M Hanny 22 Wife Married Kingston Somerset English
Edward H Thorne 20 Boarder  ? ?  Builder Powberton, Somerset English



Alice was 39 on the 1901 census so still capable of having further children. Have you checked the 1911 census to see if she did?

Unfortunately the question on children asked on the 1911 census is only relevant to Alice's last marriage so won't supply information on any other children she may have had with her other two husbands.


'In the 1911 census women were asked to state the ‘years the present marriage has lasted’, the number of children born alive to the present marriage (not just those who were living in the house) and how many had died.'


http://www.1911census.co.uk/



There doesn't seem much space between Alice's marriage to James Yates and another possible child being born unless you are suggesting she was pregnant at the time on the 1891 census or had a child subsequently by another man? That could be one reason for why she ended up in Monmouthshire?

1891 census RG12 481 folio 34
236 Camberwell Road Camberwell
Alice L Yates 29 Head Widow Living on own Means Paddington
William Shaw 9 Step son Lambeth London
Alice E Yates 9 months Daughter Peckham London

Do you know when James Yates died? Does Alice's birth certificate indicate he was still alive at the time of her birth?


Regards

Valda

[RebeccaNZ]

Thanks Valda,

It does not state on Alice Emma's birth cert, that her father is deceased so James Yates must have died between 1890 and 1891. It's possible that they might have had another child together between 1885 - 1890 - but this child is living somewhere else as Alice is a widow 1891 with young children on her own - just a thought. My g-grandfather could not have lived with other family as his paternal family was in Scotland and I don't think he had very much contact with them.

I never gave the 1891 census a good look (my mistake), I didn't realize she was a widow at that time.

That is so sad she was a widow twice in about a 10 year period - her first husband died 1882 and then her second 1891 .. wow.

It looks like Alice L. did go on to have two more children with Edwin Thorne after 1901. I did know that Edwin was previously married and had children - but my great-grandfather was in his late teens when Alice remarried and he is not living with them in 1901 census so it's possible that he did not know Edwin's children all that well. It's possible that he did of course and when he talked of having a brother he could have been referring to a step-sibling. My great-grandfather was in the army too - and he went to South Africa etc and was apart of WW1 so it's possible that he did not know his younger siblings very well as he was about 20 years older than them.

My Gran can remember him talking of a brother called Percy - this would have had to have been a half-sibling though. I just wanted to find out if this brother actually existed or if it was a story that got muddled up over time.

Rebecca

[RebeccaNZ]

The 1911 is hard to read so the name of the child can't easily be deciphered , it is a boy- and child one has died. I did find a birth reg for a Percival James Thorne b. 1904 in Newport, Gwent ... so perhaps this is him and it solves everything

[Valda]

Hi

Since the child on the 1911 census had a birth place of Newbridge his birth should be registered in Newport reigstration district.

There is a Percival of the correct age.

Births Sep 1904  
Thorne  Percival James     Newport, M.  11a 296

There are several possibilities for his dead sibling with births and deaths of Thorne children registered in Newport registation district between the date of Alice's marriage and the 1911 census (the only census so far released which gives you information on children who have been born to that marriage but are now deceased). Alice of course could have other children who similarly died between censuses from her previous marriages.


Regards

Valda

[suzard]

I think the child's name was Percival - transcribed as Winifred(son!) -could be frederick -but at the moment Percival looks the most likely (to me)

Suz

[RebeccaNZ]

Ah - thankyou, I  talked to my gran just now and she said that he defiantely talked of having a half  brother called Percy and he was about 14 when he was born. So, I hope that's him ... I will have to do more searching now thanks.

[Valda]

Hi

There is a bit of difference between 14 and 23 which is the actual gap between these two births. There doesn't seem to be anything further for Percival on the civil registration index in this country (England and Wales).


Regards

Valda