A question about Portadown 1880

[lucybella]

I would be grateful for any input into this question about a census return I came across.  It concerns an Isaac Rodgers age 30 in 1911, religion Church of Ireland, born Portadown Co Armagh. Living in Belfast 1911.
On the transcription, language spoken is recorded as Irish and English. However,  looking at the original handwritten return it is easy to make out that Isaac, or someone, has written 'broken english' as the language spoken.
I find this a strange term, surely they would write Irish and English if Irish was the main language of the person.  And would Irish be the first language of a person of Church of Ireland faith in the Portadown of 1880's?   Could it be another language and could the family be immigrants into the country from elsewhere?
Any thoughts welcome!
Thanks
Lucy

[aljepeka]

Hi Lucy,

If you check the 1901 census online you will see two Isaac Rodgers aged 20.  (www.nationalarchives.ie)

Both lived in/near Lurgan ie. John Street and the townland of Ballygargan(approx halfway between Lurgan and Portadown.  Maybe these two were the same person as one is listed as a boarder and I have been told by a member of the Proni staff that sometimes this was written instead of visitor, depending on who was recording the info. Their jobs are very similar which made me think they may be the same person, however many people had the same job /name so possibly not. Just a thought!!  Having said that only one of the isaac's listed can speak Irish.
The Isaac listed in Ballygargan can speak both irish and English.  I do not think it uncommon for a person living in that era to speak both language irrespective of what denomination they were.  When I first read your post in May I discussed it with my Dad(who is 81 ) and he recalls people from the protestant persuasion from his generation who could speak in it.  I would expect the Ballygargan Isaac to be yours as it is counted as Portadown rather than Lurgan and you stated that he was born in Portadown.
Also while browsing through the 1901 census for my own family from a neighbouring townland to Ballygargan I found that both my Great Grandparents also spoke Irish.
You also ask could they be immigrants... I suppose we all were at one time but the Ballygargan Rodgers/Rogers had lived in the area for quite a while and today there are still Rodgers living in the area . As with most rural townlands many of the families married into each other on more than one occasion. My own family has connection(although distant  only via marriage) with the Ballygargan Rodgers.

It also states on the census form that if the person speaks both languages it is to be recorded as 'Irish and English'. It does not mention recording it as their first language witten down first.

Hope this helps a bit but maybe someone with more knowledge of the subject can help.
If you want a contact for the Rodgers family let me know . I do know that several local twigs of their tree are into their family History plus a direct link also.  How are you connected to them??  Hope you can understand this and sorry for being long winded!!:)
Regards,
 Aljepeka

[lucybella]

Thank you Aljepeka for taking the time and trouble to reply to my query. 
In fact I do not think either of these two Isaac Rodgers are connected to me.   I was interested in the name as I have found my great great grandfather was Isaac Rodgers, lived in Belfast and died in 1882, age 52.  I have no idea where he was born, which would have been around 1830. 
My query was specifically related to what I viewed on the 'Form A' of the census sheet in 1911.  You can see the actual handwritten copy if you click on it and then enlarge it for a better view.   What I noticed was the phrase 'broken english' recorded.  I think it strange.  In 1911 this Isaac ( I think it is one and the same person as the two in 1901) has 'broken english'?  He is 30 at this stage and living in Symons St Belfast.  Would they not have recorded 'Irish and English' - there is a mistranscription on the typed form.
I just noticed this as I am trying to find the birthplace and origin of my great great grandfather Isaac, who married a Rose Ann Daly, and had a son William who was my great grandfather. 
Your reply is much appreciated, and it is very interesting to find out that persons from all religious background may have had Irish as their first language. Although I am thinking that the term 'broken english' denoted a foreign language maybe?

Thanks again
Lucy

[aljepeka]

Hi again Lucy,

No worries.

Isaac and Rose were married in 1855.   Do you have a copy of their wedding certificate? It should give his fathers name. Perhaps we could find him on the freeholders records?? 

There is an Isaac born in 1831 in Co. Donegal....have you checked it out yet.

Church Baptism Rodgers Isaac Orr 1831 Co. Donegal   
I found it on www.brsgenealogy.com . To view the record costs 5 Euro.

Good luck with your search.

Aljepeka