Westminster district

[EEK]

My gt grandfather consistently has his birthplace as St Margaret's Westminster. I want to send for his birth cert. but there are 3 entries on FREEBMD between 1838 and 1842 with his name. One I know to be wrong as I've already researched it and bought the cert: one was born in Clerkenwell - not Westminster. The last one is down as Strand. Would St Margaret's come under Strand? I've tried Genuki but not come up with an answer. I've now bought so many wrong certs. I'm loathe to send for another!
Regards, Eileen

[t mo]

hi eek
i,ve had a google about and the strand is in westminster ,st margarets ch is in the grounds of westminster abbey and has quite a history in its own right both winston churchill and samuel pepys were married there , not to each other i may hasten to add !!!!!
trevor

[Valda]

Hi

Here is a map of the parishes in Wesminster in 1903 (Genuki)


http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/MDX/Westminster/outline.htm

St Margaret Westminster is numbered 26 and St Mary Le Strand 18. They are close but not adjacent.


The Strand you are describing is not a parish but a civil registration district. These are the areas covered by Strand civil registration district


http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/strand.html

up to (St Martins in the Fields) but not including the next parish St Margaret Westminster.


The areas covered by the civil registration district of St Margaret Westminster


http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/westminster%20st%20margaret.html


It is very close and where he was brought up and which church he attended might be where he thought he was precisely born.

If you give us his name perhaps we can do a search to help confirm it.


Regards

Valda

[EEK]

Thanks to Trevor and Valda for your help. I'm loathe to tell you his name as I've been helped a few times in the past with this family line. Recently, I met up with a cousin through genealogy, whom I've not met for 50 years. She had a marriage cert. for this gt grandfather, and to my utter horror his father's name was James. The family I had traced had his name as John. This family I had felt a real connection to, and had travelled to London to look at their houses and take photos: I had sent for at least 6 certs and 1 will and had joined Ancestry solely to find their London baptisms and marriages. It had taken me days of trawling London church records and Ancestry- and I had shared this information with many family members especially as many baptisms and marriages of this family were conducted at St James, the church where 2 of our grandchildren were christened.  The one mistake was with my gt grandfather. I'm sure the rest was correct but just not my family! Sorry to Valda and a few other RootsChatters for my incompetence and inexperience.

Anyway, back to my question: his name is Charles Webber. His army record states that he was born in Westminster, St Margarets, as does one of the censuses. He is on the 1881 census with my grandmother Ellen, so at least I know that to be right. The marriage cert. from my cousin is correct, as it give the correct name of my gt grandmother and her father whom we know was a miller. Charles' father is given as James Webber, stonemason. By his army record, he was born around 1840 and died in 1886, in Colchester.

I suspect he was either illegitimate or his mother died at his birth. He's with an old lady in Devon in the 51 census and an army recruit in the 61 census. He's never with a relative to help with the tree.

Any help appreciated, regards, Eileen

[Valda]

Hi

The 1851 census shows the family in Hampstead father John son Charles aged 11 born Westminster who from what you say is the incorrect family. That Charles' birth registration is this one

Births Mar 1840  Webber  Charles Henry    St Jas.Westr  1 106

CHARLES HENRY WEBBER 
Birth:  05 FEB 1840   
Christening:  01 MAR 1840   Saint James, Westminster, London
Father:  JOHN WEBBER 
Mother:  SARAH 


The Charles Webber in Devon born London is aged 9 so a birth date of circa 1841/1842 if his age is accurate

The Strand birth registration is 1840 would be too early if that was the case


Births Dec 1840  Webber  Charles     Strand  1 327


possible death registration of that child


Deaths Jun 1848   WEBBER  Charles     Strand  1 311

Whether it is or isn't the same person the Strand child should be showing on the 1841 census and isn't.


There are no birth registrations for a Charles Webber in 1841/1842.

However if he is the Charles Webber in 1861 in Raglan Barracks Stoke Damerel Devon born St Margaret Middlesex then his age is 22 birth year circa 1838/1839 - 53rd Regiment (Shropshire).

The problem historically with men's ages is they tend to be a bit of a moveable feast. Women's ages are more fixed. That might not be the case in more modern times. If Charles attested underage then he might have moved his age back. The army would not have been bothered. It didn't care much about what soldiers said on their attestation forms, it was just interested in signing up the recruit.

There are no birth registrations for a Charles Webber circa 1838/1839

This is the early stages of registration so not all children were registered. There is far less likelihood of an illegitimate baby being registered than a legitimate one. Illegitimate people are unreliable when it comes to information on their marriage certificates about their fathers.

Does his army record state he attested in Devon and he was in the army by 1861?

The 1881 census states his age was 41 and he was born in Westminster. He was a sergeant in the army service corps so that would put his birth year as 1839/1840.

His age at death in 1886 was given as 44 which goes back to the 1851 census of circa 1841/1842

Ancestry holds the church records deposited at the London Metropolitan Archives and the Guildhal Library (covering the City of London parishes). What it doesn't have is the Westminster Archives parish registers and any church who has not deposited its records. Where some Westminster parish records appear on Ancestry these are fragmentary. Every year perishes were supposed to make copies of their registers and send them to the Bishop. Not all parishes did this, if they did they didn't necessarily copy all the information, or copy it without errors and all those BTs have not necessarily survived. Where they have they are held by the LMA and therefore Ancestry has them.

Knowing there is no baptism for a Charles Webber found. Is there any evidence for the existence of a James Webber stone mason - sometimes it is necessary to go sideways. Are there any sibling baptisms?


St John the Evangelist Westminster 9th June 1834 born 7th? February
William Webber son of James and Ann, 14 Medway Street, father's occupation mason

The other James and Ann Webber baptisms born to a James whose occupation was a saddler. His second name which he doesn't always use was Croft

I'm not sure how much that moves it on - just a bit tantalising.


It is very easy to skip records and jump using censuses in an effort to go back as quickly as possible - particularly dangerous in large cities where there are bound to be more than one person with the same name at the same time. There are probably quite a few people happily researching lines that are not their own because they didn't check all the available records. You will not be alone. It is not incompetence it is inexperience. Assumptions are very dangerous in family history and should not replace evidence. Its all about how do you know/how have you proved it.


Regards

Valda

[EEK]

Thank you for your help, Valda. Finding that Charles Webber, born in the Strand area, probably died as a child has saved me from another wrong certificate.

I found one entry on the 1841 census for ? his father. He's down as J Webber born 1816 stonemason residing in Shoreditch and single. That's what made me think Charles is illegitimate.

Charles' army attestation was made in Westminster 21/6/1860. He is said to be 22 and a butler. His birth says "in the parish of St Margaret's Middlesex." He was an army cook.

Another strange fact is that his wife Ellen Legge had a sister Eliza who married a Stephen Charles Webber from Weymouth, whose father was James. Charles Webber's first child was named Charles Stephen. Charles and Stephen were both cooks, both in the army and both stationed at round about the same time in Aldershot. All my grandmother's lines of the family came from the Dorset area as does the name Webber.

Regards, Eileen

[Valda]

Hi

I don't know whether the 1840 birth registration in the Strand is ruled out. I couldn't confirm it from the 1841 census by finding him, and the death registration index doesn't give an age so it may not be connected to the 1840 birth. The London area had a large population so there are always likely to be more than one person with the same name in the same area, unless the name is rare (and often it isn't quite as rare as people think - not in a city of over a million people).

You can't know from the 1841 census whether the man you found in the 1841 census was single. Status and relationships are not given on the 1841 census so all you know is he wasn't with any other Webbers, but you don't know whether his name was James. The odds are in favour of John since that was the more popular first name.

There is no indication on William's baptism in 1834 that his parents were not married.

As Charles attested in 1860 it might be possible he was the one found in Devon on the 1861 census?


Regards

Valda