Lulworth Cove, Mervyn O'GORMAN photos?

[Mako23]

page 400 from the book history of Limerick

 
James O'Gorman (who was the fourth son of Daniel O'Gorman and Mary Roche, daughter of Philip Roche of Limerick), was born in the Castle of Bunratty,
Co. Clare, in 1681 ; he lost his property, and went to live in Limerick in 1724,  where he married Christina Harold, third daughter of Thomas Harold and Alicia Enraght. He died in 1736. He had three sons and one daughter. His second son  Thomas  was  born in 1724, and went to England in 1747, to claim for his relative Mrs Margaret Daly Walsh, estates, as heir-at-law to Sheffield Duke of Buckingham, and succeeded in establishing her right. He afterwards established himself as a merchant in London; He died in 1800, and the mercantile house, a somewhat eminent one, was continued under the firm of Goman Brothers. He had fourteen children. The period at which he dropped the 0' was after he went to London. The names of his sons  were  Edmond Sexton, Alicutbouse, Thomas Harold, James (Michael Arthur), William, Sivester, Charles, James Denis Charles, Thadeus, and George. It was James, we believe, that gave evidence for Mr. Arthur. Edmond A. Gorman, Esq. of east Berghall, Suffolk, represents this family.

Thomas Harold, James was Mervyns Grandad and was rich, so its fair to say that Mervyns dad was also wealthy

[Mako23]

I too have been looking at this.
As already mentioned the 1911 and 1901 census for Mervyn and his wife show no children, more importantly the 1911 which obliged couples to record children born alive and still living, shows zero for both.
I feel that their connections to Ireland would be loose as the family originally arrived in the mid 1700s.
I have discovered that Mervyn had an older full brother and at least 3 half brothers, one of his half brothers Francis Edmund OGorman had 2 daughters, Winifred born 1892 and Gillian born 1897, the girls are home educated with a governess - the beach picnic certainly looks like a governess with 2 girls although they seem a little young for the birthdates of Winifred and Gillian. Plus of course they are not called Christina!
I'm currently tracing Mervyn's other siblings and then of course there will be his wife's siblings.
Regards
Aziliz

Some genlogical sites list Francis Edmond O'Gorman as the brother you have a Francis Edmund O'Gorman


Small spelling difference, but are they the same person or different

[Rusoftheeast]

I gave up days ago actually but can you just check this out?

http://www.parentdish.co.uk/2015/04/30/100-year-old-colour-photos-on-the-beach/

What one of the comments says about Christina.He says she was not a relative not sure where he got that from though.He even names her husband and her child.

[Mako23]

I gave up days ago actually but can you just check this out?

http://www.parentdish.co.uk/2015/04/30/100-year-old-colour-photos-on-the-beach/

What one of the comments says about Christina.He says she was not a relative not sure where he got that from though.He even names her husband and her child.

I'm close to giving up myself. The link stating that its Christina Gorman might make some sense however there's no proof given.

The frustrating part is the inconsistent use of the name gorman versus o'gorman in historical records

[chempat]

He says she was not a relative not sure where he got that from though.He even names her husband and her child.

I think he means that he is not related to her, not that she is not related to Mervyn

He means this marriage
Marriages December quarter 1927   
Christina Gorman  Devonport  5b  842
Llewellyn G Thomas  Devonport  5b  842

But looks like 2 daughters from that marriage.

[kilkennylass]

sorry for all the posts folks, it's a lazy Sunday morning in bed for me

Mervyn O'gorman was one of nine children , of the  8 siblings many can be discounted due to early death or not marrying and taking vows in the Catholic Church. Must of been a very religious family. I've often wondered why Mervyn never had any children and maybe being one of nine kids and losing his father at a early age put him off halving kids.

the possible candidates are the following

II. Francis-Edmond, born 17th November, 1859. He had two daughters of the correct age

V. Mary, born 11th Oct., 1863.  (Would of been 44 when giving birth to girl of Christina age)

VI. Edmond-John Whyte.  Born between 1865 and 1867 did his mother die at chilbirth because she died in 1867

IX. Bernardine Beauchamp-Colclough, born 1st Nov., 1874

Some updates on these possible candidates

V. Mary born 11 Oct 1863 in Suffolk, died without issue in June 1934

VI. Edmond John Whyte born 1867 in Suffolk, died without issue in Feb 1933 (he was a Catholic priest like his older half brothers Joseph Vincent and Ignatius Thomas)

IX. Bernardine Beauchamp Colclough born Nov 1874, married Eva Mary Johnson in 1906, died July 1943.  Can't find any children, but seeing that he married in 1906, he can't have had a child that would match 'Christina' age.

That leaves

II. Francis Edmond O'Gorman, born 17th November 1859. He would be Mervyn's older half brother (as the 2nd son of Mervyns fathers first marriage).  Francis Edmond married in 1886 Constance Pownall (1869-1944).  They have 3 children a son, Francis Hugh (1888-1955) and two daughters Winifred Constance born 1893, and Gillian Dorothy born 1897 making them 20 and 16 respectively at the time the photos were taken, if indeed they were taken in 1913.   

On the 1911 census the 2 girls are living in Suffolk, with their parents and 4 servants (the census also confirms that there were only the 3 children from the marriage, so no 3rd daughter to match to the '3 girls on the beach' photo)

There is an image of 'Christina' not taken at the beach, she is in red but in front of a leaf covered wall with purple flowers, and there is a corresponding image of a similar younger looking girl in a green striped jumper in front of the same wall.  Are these matching photos of the two sisters ??

I've been at this for about two weeks now, and only today did i find someone with the actual name 'Christina' within the family, born in Ireland in 1810.  Either 'Christina' is a daughter of a friend of the family, in which case there would be no 'paper trail', or she is a member of the family not named Christina.

Back to the research ....

[Mako23]

Thanks kilkennylass for doing this research and moving the quest for the truth onwards

We can deduct that Mervyns mother is very unlikely to provide any links due to most of her siblings being dead way before any possible birth dates for the girls in the photo.

On Mervyns father side only one candidate seems likely which is his half brother Francis Edmond O'Gorman and his two daughters Winifred Constance (1893), and Gillian Dorothy (1897) are these the two girls in the pictures, lets go through the evidence

The question that needs to be as asked first is

WHY were these photo's made, what was the motivation for such staged shots

The first conclusion is that these were professional shots with a model selected and the purpose of these shots were to display these photos and show the wonders of autochrome photos. If they impress people now they would impress people then and impress them well

There are  arguments against this

1 There seems to be a earlier picture of Christina in black and white we she appears younger, so at least knew the girl and is unlikely to be some model he hired off the street

2 The picture on the beach of the three girls indicates some family setting

3 There's also a picture of another girl in the same setting, yet this picture is not so well known.

4 Mervyn seems to be much of a perfectionist which might explain why so much effort was put into staging these pictures

For me the two girls Winifred Constance (1893), and Gillian Dorothy (1897) seem strong possibilities. This is partly based on a saying from Sherlock Homes

"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth "

Another interesting point to consider is Francis Edmond O'Gorman was a wealthy man. Maybe he asked his Brother to take the pictures and payed the costs associated with these pictures.  It just seems that some of these pictures you would want to display in a home, and Mervyn decided to take a few extra picture to display at exhibition which explain some of the pictures you wouldn't want to display on your family wall i.e the pictures of Christina on the rocks by a boat. The two pictures of the girls against the wall look like pictures a father would want to put on a wall and hence the picture of BOTH girls is taken

This is conjecture but there is a way to take this theory forward

Do two of the three girls on the beach match the two girls holding flowers against the wall
Ill be trying to get the highest quality copies and see if they match

If they do it would be best to trace the living relatives of these girls and see if they can drag up old photos of them. Even if the girls have aged a lot we can use computer technology to see if they be matched with facial recognition software.


the last mystery is the word Christina itself, maybe one of the girls hated there name so much they had a pet name for themselves
If I was called Winifred Constance id want a name change

[Rusoftheeast]

http://gw.geneanet.org/sanchiz?lang=en;p=michael+arthur;n=o+gorman

The only Christina of the family married James Tobin of Cumsinagh?

[kilkennylass]

@Mako23  You make some excellent points...

"Do two of the three girls on the beach match the two girls holding flowers against the wall
Ill be trying to get the highest quality copies and see if they match

If they do it would be best to trace the living relatives of these girls and see if they can drag up old photos of them. Even if the girls have aged a lot we can use computer technology to see if they be matched with facial recognition software"

I'm confident that the two girls by the wall are the two younger girls from the '3 girls on beach' image.....but more importantly I may have found photos of Winifred & Gillian together as children, its a b&w photo dated 1901, and the same person has also posted photos of Gillian from 1926 and later.  I've contacted the person who posted the images asking for confirmation of the identities, date taken etc, and I've sent them the 'christina' photos in case they weren't aware and can either confirm/deny the connection themselves, or pass them onto a family member who can. 

"For me the two girls Winifred Constance (1893), and Gillian Dorothy (1897) seem strong possibilities. This is partly based on a saying from Sherlock Homes
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth ""

There are 3 sisters in Florences (Mervyn's wife) family, who match in age (and thus could match the 3 girls on the beach) so there is still that line of inquiry, but they are more distant family being Florences' great-neices so linking them back to Mervyn & Florence in Dorset in 1913 may prove tricky, but hey Florence might have been close to her older brother and taken an interest in his granddaughters !

The questions that are puzzling me are on the photographic side .. why do we only have these handful of photos from Mervyn ? If he was so keen a photographer, and had the money & time to partake of this expensive hobby, why so few photos ? Is it simply that there were hundreds more but they've been lost or destroyed ?  And how did these few come to be in possession of the Royal Photographic Society ? Do TRPS actually have more of his images in their archives, undiscovered ?  And the big question niggling me, was Mervyn the actual photographer ? Maybe she was called Christina, but no relation to Mervyn who through his many artistic contacts 'ended up' with the images and inadvertently claimed authourship of them himself. 

From so many angles, this is a fascinating story.