Tram death

[atome]

Hi its atome aka Claire from the Davies family tree on ancestry. I'm glad you got in touch with me, cus it made me go back and re look at some records. Previously I wasn't able to look at at the full records with my membership. However now i can and i have found that the marriage record is not for my James Warner in my family tree. As it states the fathers name is James Warner. So iv had to completely scrap what i had and start again. So I'm not sure if that means we have the same tree or not. I have however found a James J Warner in 1901 census stating that he is a widower. dunno if that's a match or not thou. Tbh i think my James very rarely used he's middle name. Which doesn't help me at all lol. If i can be any use please do not hesitate to contact me 

[dianat]

Hi there
I haven't heard from you so I quite understand your reluctance to communicate with me via our own e-mail address.  So I shall be as brief as possible before I get cut-off.
I have now done a large amount of research into these two families.  Family 1.  Headed by Edward Warner and Elizabeth Crouch.  If you go into World Connect and find the website  www.wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi        Place Warner in the search and you will find the Baggs Family Tree.  There's a lot of research done on this Warner family, in fact pages of it.  They had 17 children!!  I have contacted this man but he says he isn't related, so no help there.  He was very abrupt with me and I have no desire to contact him again.
Family 2.  Headed by James Warner and Phoebe.  They had six children.  Louisa who I believe married George Cook. Charles who might have married Mary Ann.  James b.1844 who married Eliza Hill. Maria who married Edwin Charles Clarke and they had Amelia Phoebe. Eliza b. 1850 and last but not least Margaret.
So where does that leave me.  In limbo still, I fear.  I believe that Phoebe died in 1889 as a Widower, so James b. 1811 must have died prior to this time.  It was their son, however who was killed by a tram, according to my deceased Mother.  Thank you again for your help
Best wishes
Diana

[Nick29]

I believe that Phoebe died in 1889 as a Widower, so James b. 1811 must have died prior to this time. 

Diana, just a quick thought..... you should try to obtain Phoebe's death certificate.  This will give the name of the informant.  If the informant was James, then she wasn't a widow. 

[dianat]

Thank you Nick for you thoughts.  Appreciate it.
Best wishes
Diana - Tasmania

[dianat]

To all those kind people who have helped me locate information on my ggrandfather James Warner born in 1844, I thought I should post an update.  I found that his parents were James and Phoebe Warner.  I also found that he married Eliza Hill in 1867 and had six children.  Then he was found to have married another Eliza this time a widow by the name of Eliza nee Smith Barnett, in 1899 in Edmonton, Middlesex..  She had four children by her deceased husband Richard Barnett.  Then James, my ggrandfather and Eliza 2, had a daughter Winifred born in 1900.  I believe she married Harold Grocott.   The big question is, did James get a divorce from his first wife Eliza nee Hill Warner?. Or was my ggrandfather a Bigamist!!
James Warner, I believe died in 1914 and I have yet to find a tram death for him.  James and Eliza (2) Warner were Newsagents living in Edmonton, Middlesex. Although it seems James Warner died in Hackney, his birth place. 
Thank you for all of your help and guidance.
Good luck in your search
Diana

[Valda]

Hi

There would be no grounds for James to obtain a divorce. It would have to be his first wife who obtained the divorce and given that she gave her status on the censuses as married and also the then cost of divorce that seems unlikely.
The National Archives has a divorce index online

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp

James Warner does not seem to appear to be in it. If he was divorced his status on his second marriage should be divorcee

8th July 1899 St James, Clerkenwell
James Edwin Warner 52 Widower Stationer 345 Northampton Buildings James Warner No occupation
Eliza Barnett 39 Widow 345 Northampton Buildings James Smith (deceased) Coal porter
Both signed
Witnesses Anna and Martha Louisa Smith


Regards

Valda

[dianat]

Thanks Valda.   I thought the law would say that you couldn't re-marry without
either being divorced or  widowed.     I know that some religions allow for multiple husbands/wives but not in England.  I am surprised.

Best wishes
Diana     

[Nick29]

Multiple marriages were neither legal nor condoned in the UK at that time, but because a divorce was difficult to obtain (almost impossible for women), then people did marry bigamously, even though it was a criminal offence.

[dianat]

Thanks Nick for your comment.   I feel sad for my ggrandmother, she must have had an awful life with my ggrandfather and was better off without him.  I understood from my mother that her grandfather was a drunkard and a womaniser.  Enough said....

Diana